Coronavirus

[Bullfrog]

two years in, how can people still be so misinformed?

edit: that's rhetorical. I know the answer(s). It's just mind-boggling to me the stupidity out there.

 

[L K]

two years in, how can people still be so misinformed?

edit: that's rhetorical. I know the answer(s). It's just mind-boggling to me the stupidity out there.

Shut up.  What about the Bubonic plague.  We didn't vaccinate for it and it isn't here now.  Vaccines cause COVID.

 

[Bullfrog]

Never trust LK, he's part of "the system."

He doesn't even know that the bubonic plague still exists.

 

[Joe S.]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/nhl-postpones-next-two-games-maple-leafs-canucks/

Good lord the comments here.

 

[rdowdall]

I guess my frustration is with whoever is overseeing this process of fighting Covid.  The same problems that were there two years ago are still there.  The system can become bogged down and they have not been successful in improving the system to where it doesn't become bogged down.  It is not a well-oiled machine, and after two years, you would think that they would have improved upon it. 

Well, ok but again I think we need to be clear about who we mean when we say "they". Like, it's just an unfortunate fact of the Canadian constitution that dealing with Covid can't be centralized under a federal umbrella with one uniform national approach the way they can in places like Japan or Korea. It's not a system designed for nimble responses to specific problems.

Trust me, I'm not here to convince you that Ford has done well or you shouldn't be frustrated by how they constantly seem to be a step behind on everything. But, and I don't want to get overtly political here too much, there's also a part of me that looks at what you're saying and thinks, you know, why in the world would you expect the current Ontario Government to be really good at governing on this one specific issue when they have a track record of being pretty terrible at everything and preferring a hands-off "hey, maybe the market will sort things out" approach to just about every single challenge we face? Believe you me, I wish people voted on the basis of "Will this group be good at running the incredible complex and challenging branches of government they're entrusted with?" but unfortunately the people of this province decided to go with Rob Ford's less competent brother. Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. 

It's frustrating to me because it seems that lockdowns have become the crutch that is used because we lack the desire to look at other areas to control the spread of Covid.  I think that Canada should be able to do better.  I think that the powers that be that are making the decisions using lockdowns in case of widespread outbreaks are content with making that decision because they believe that the vaccine will be the thing that eventually removes the need for lockdowns.  What if it isn't?  If in 5 years, we still have a province-wide lockdown every couple of months, should we not be looking for a potentially different solution?  If people say yes, in 5 years, we should have a better system in place, then I say, well my timeline is just shorter than that.  It shouldn't take 5 years to explore a better system than province-wide lockdowns.

Right and I think what I'm trying to say is that I think you're confusing the grim realities we're facing with a choice being made by some vague "powers that be". As much as I think the current government deserves a great deal of criticism for what's gone on with their Covid response I still don't think anyone wants lockdowns. I think almost uniformly they're being used as a last resort when we're faced with challenges that, absent resorting to the drastic measure of a lockdown, would deal devastating damage to society. Because of that, I absolutely think other solutions are being explored and every possible alternative being tested because, again, nobody wants lockdowns. There's no "lack of desire" for something better. There just isn't one right now. Even you, you have to admit, are making some pretty vague criticisms along the lines of "what if X was possible?"

Where I think you're somewhat mistakenly focused, however, is this idea that anyone thinks there's going to be any one solution that ends the need for lockdowns definitively and forever.  We all want that to be the case but we all have to deal with the reality that it might not happen, no matter what alternatives are explored. The lack of a better option does not make our least-bad option any better or worse, just the same that it's always been.

I mean, look at your hypothetical. What if there were a way to track and trace where the virus was going and get on top of who needed to isolate and why...ok, then what? Because it seems to me that we've spent the last two years in a society that has proven that there's a large contingent of that society that absolutely will not do what they should do as it relates to Covid no matter how dire. So do we enforce that isolation? With the police and arrests? And what happens if we then face a mutation that makes that more difficult?

You ask "should we have a better system in place in 5 years" and I really think you need to realize that wanting there to be a better solution doesn't make one appear. We all want there to be a better solution and not 5 years from now but right now but that want doesn't get us there. It doesn't change the science. It doesn't triple hospital capacity or make people more responsible. Trust me, the second Covid was a problem alternatives were explored and exhausted and the reason people came to lockouts was not the lack of desire for freedom or that they're more patient with pandemic than you are, it's just the stark realities of what is and isn't possible being accepted.

Okay, I think I understand your position.  Having a frustration born from the idea that if different actions had been taken by the powers that be is at this point:
a) Monday morning quaterbacking those decisions in a situation that hasn't occurred in 100 years, so that's a little unfair.
b) Foolish given that there are no guarantees that a different course of actions or choices would lead to a different outcome.

I can see that point of view.  I still think we could have done some things to mitigate another province wide lockdown, but we aren't there yet, and we may not get there, so being frustrated and wanting different decisions over something that hasn't happened yet is also unfair.

I would like to go on record now as saying that if the powers that be do have information that vaccines aren't going to give us a consistent way forward of preventing these circuit breaker type of occasions, then I hope they develop a system where you have to scan your health card to get into places. 

I feel that this would solve a couple of issues.  One it provides instant contact tracing for places like the grocery store where there isn't currently any contact tracing.  Another is that it has the vaccination status built in, so if we do have to move forward with boosters, we don't have to redownload new QR codes with each booster, the status is just tied to your card.  Also, it ties a positive test result to the contact tracing data collected above.  There would be kinks that would need to be worked out, like what if you don't have a health card, but I am sure that a process can be created to work around those kinks.  I think that efficiently tying the positive test result to the contact tracing could go a long way to allowing us to selectively shut things down and mitigate the need to have the province wide circuit breaker lockdowns. 

I would be willing to scan my health card to purchase my nipple pants, where ever that may be. 

 

[Bullfrog]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/nhl-postpones-next-two-games-maple-leafs-canucks/

Good lord the comments here.

Van Wilder
Still no proof covid even exists.

Some real gems.

 

[rdowdall]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/nhl-postpones-next-two-games-maple-leafs-canucks/

Good lord the comments here.

Van Wilder
Still no proof covid even exists.

Some real gems.

I think this is my favourite:

Craig Harrison
3 HRS AGO
Upon hearing the news, Auston threw his purse at the wall.

IT'S A MAN BAG JACKASS!!!!

 

[Kin]

Okay, I think I understand your position.  Having a frustration born from the idea that if different actions had been taken by the powers that be is at this point:
a) Monday morning quaterbacking those decisions in a situation that hasn't occurred in 100 years, so that's a little unfair.
b) Foolish given that there are no guarantees that a different course of actions or choices would lead to a different outcome.

I can see that point of view.  I still think we could have done some things to mitigate another province wide lockdown, but we aren't there yet, and we may not get there, so being frustrated and wanting different decisions over something that hasn't happened yet is also unfair.

I don't know about unfair but there is a small part of me that feels like it's not especially helpful if it's not tied to specific criticism of the who and the what. Because, you know, I certainly get the frustration because I feel it in daily life pre-Covid, right? Like, you're looking at this government and saying "Why haven't we come up with better responses to this disease in 2 years" and sometimes I'm saying "Hey, we're a wealthy society, how come we haven't come up with a more comprehensive social health system in 55 years?" or "How come we haven't come up with a more equitable distribution of wealth in the 170 some odd years we've existed?" and those frustrations are plenty real too.

Because, again, you want to avoid getting overly political here because this is a team effort and everything but I think you'll find that a lot of what could be done to come up with a better response relies on asking people to put collective good over individual desires and that is a concept that certain people actively discourage when it comes to our political discourse. We would be having a very different discussion about Vaccines and the necessity for lockdowns if we were at 95% as opposed to 80 or wherever we got to but getting to 95%, given how reluctant some people are, would have required drastic political action from the people running our response to the pandemic and there was never a reasonable expectation that they'd get there given how they govern and see society. We all knew that there were still millions who are unvaccinated and we knew variants were possible. If you'd been sold a false bill of goods that said that vaccinating 80% of people was enough to kill Covid forever and avoid lockdowns I think you'd be on better footing but you weren't.

I would like to go on record now as saying that if the powers that be do have information that vaccines aren't going to give us a consistent way forward of preventing these circuit breaker type of occasions, then I hope they develop a system where you have to scan your health card to get into places. 

I feel that this would solve a couple of issues.  One it provides instant contact tracing for places like the grocery store where there isn't currently any contact tracing.  Another is that it has the vaccination status built in, so if we do have to move forward with boosters, we don't have to redownload new QR codes with each booster, the status is just tied to your card.  Also, it ties a positive test result to the contact tracing data collected above.  There would be kinks that would need to be worked out, like what if you don't have a health card, but I am sure that a process can be created to work around those kinks.  I think that efficiently tying the positive test result to the contact tracing could go a long way to allowing us to selectively shut things down and mitigate the need to have the province wide circuit breaker lockdowns. 

I would also like our Province to be run by competent and forward thinking people who are willing to invest political capital and money into making our public health response better.

 

[Bullfrog]

I would also like our Province to be run by competent and forward thinking people who are willing to invest political capital and money into making our public health response better.

I just want dental and mental health coverage. How we have a society where low-middle income can't access these services is beyond me.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/gator_gum/status/1472603931062816773

 

[OldTimeHockey]

https://twitter.com/gator_gum/status/1472603931062816773

What am I missing?

 

[herman]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

 

[herman]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

This was already recognized by epidemiologists and teachers summer of 2020, when the government was trotting out that kids can't get or spread Covid. I think it's important that kids be in schools (for their development and mental health, and for the parents and the associated economies to operate), but it needs to be recognized that the people responsible for setting these policies had the same information we did back on page 50-60 of this thread and elected to do nothing of substance, while the downstream school boards, health care workers, and public health units bust their humps to deal with the fallout.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

This was already recognized by epidemiologists and teachers summer of 2020, when the government was trotting out that kids can't get or spread Covid.

But there was little spread in schools for all of 2020/2021 school year. It wasn't until this fall that the spread really started.

 

[Joe S.]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

This was already recognized by epidemiologists and teachers summer of 2020, when the government was trotting out that kids can't get or spread Covid.

But there was little spread in schools for all of 2020/2021 school year. It wasn't until this fall that the spread really started.

Unless I?m missing something kids weren?t in class until sept of 2021.

 

[rdowdall]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

This was already recognized by epidemiologists and teachers summer of 2020, when the government was trotting out that kids can't get or spread Covid.

But there was little spread in schools for all of 2020/2021 school year. It wasn't until this fall that the spread really started.

Unless I?m missing something kids weren?t in class until sept of 2021.

They were in and out last year. They would go for a couple of months then stay at home for a month.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

This was already recognized by epidemiologists and teachers summer of 2020, when the government was trotting out that kids can't get or spread Covid.

But there was little spread in schools for all of 2020/2021 school year. It wasn't until this fall that the spread really started.

Unless I?m missing something kids weren?t in class until sept of 2021.

2020 they went back/were given a choice between in class or online....if not mistaken

 

[herman]

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/2020/05/covid-19-epi-infection-children.pdf
Check out the extremely predictable chart on page 9

 

[Bullfrog]

Up until now, Ontario government officials (Ministry of Education) have proclaimed quite loudly that schools are safe and don't require any additional safety measures beyond "wear masks unless you are eating".

Crazy how things evolve and regulations need to change.

This was already recognized by epidemiologists and teachers summer of 2020, when the government was trotting out that kids can't get or spread Covid. I think it's important that kids be in schools (for their development and mental health, and for the parents and the associated economies to operate), but it needs to be recognized that the people responsible for setting these policies had the same information we did back on page 50-60 of this thread and elected to do nothing of substance, while the downstream school boards, health care workers, and public health units bust their humps to deal with the fallout.

I'm not one to defend this buffoonery of a government, but I don't recall them claiming that kids can't get or spread coronavirus. I recall the belief was that the symptoms were milder in them and that the mental health cost might outweight the virus risks.