Dealing with Last Night's Loss

[Redleaf]

Well, because nobody seems to have taken it as such/it wasn't all that funny a joke to begin with I'll come flat out and say that my post at the beginning isn't really genuine. All five paragraphs are just exaggerated/jokey representations of the Kubler-Ross 5 stages of grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance).

I can only imagine how conflicted you were in the debate about whether or how soon the magician should reveal his secret when nobody actually saw the trick.

Well, I didn't imagine people would come in here and start actually talking about how they were dealing with the loss.

If you b*tch it, they will moan.

Or something like that.

(Seriously, auto-censor, I can't say female dog...?)

You just did. female dog. Now I said it too.

 

[Kin]

If you b*tch it, they will moan.

Or something like that.

Still, irony and whatnot...

Still. I'm with you. 1993 was way more devastating. They were closer to the Cup, they had two chances to put it away and, you know, I was 11.

 

[Redleaf]

I would much rather have that happen for ten minutes, (even if it was the most important ten minutes in years) than to have been an easy out every game of the series.

That's a false dichotomy though. Sure, everyone would prefer a team take it to seven than get blown out and swept but this was a 4 seed vs. a 5 seed. There was no real reason to think that was going to be the case even if you did think that Boston presented the worst of all possible match-ups for the Leafs. To present not getting a demolished as a win in and of itself is expecting too little out of this team based on the season they had.

Seriously, when was the last time a team, at any seed came into the playoffs and got their doors blown off in four? This year the 8 seeds won 3 games in the first round. Last year the 8 seeds won 7 games in the first round.

The idea that the Leafs were some sisters of the poor underdog who were lucky to even be in the playoffs? That just does not correspond to the season we just watched.

False dichotomy or not. My point was pretty easy to understand. Even with the ten minute collapse at the worst possible moment of the series, they were pretty competitive the majority of the other 410 minutes. Looking at the series as a whole, its hard to say they didn't make some significant strides towards becoming a legitimate playoff team. Whether or not they could perform well in the playoffs was certainly in question at the end of the regular season. Was it not? I think, in the bigger picture, they most certainly did.

Edit. I'll take the collapse at the end if I have to, but along with that I'll take the fact that they pushed their arch nemesis the past 3 years to the brink too.

 

[Kin]

False dichotomy or not. My point was pretty easy to understand. Even with the ten minute collapse at the worst possible moment of the series, they were pretty competitive the majority of the other 410 minutes. Looking at the series as a whole, its hard to say they didn't make some significant strides towards becoming a legitimate playoff team. Whether or not they could perform well in the playoffs was certainly in question at the end of the regular season. Was it not?

But I think the point that you're overlooking is that the Leafs competitiveness throughout the series, especially laudable or not, is precisely why this loss has hit some people so hard and why it could prove to be tough to deal with for a fan or potentially a player.

The people who questioned whether the Leafs could be a competitive team in the playoffs were shown that they could. That many of their preconceived notions about playoff hockey in the modern NHL were a little outdated. The Leafs, and this should have been evident by how they performed this season, could play with Boston.

The problem with the connection you're trying to make is A) as I say the sorts of explosions you're talking about don't really happen anymore and B) there's really nothing to support the idea that this sort of loss, that can hit harder than a sweep is more character building than any other sort of loss. The Leafs takeaway from this series could be "We had the talent but we don't have the heart/fortitude/leadership/whatever other nonsense platitude to do it" and they could take "We're not good enough we have to work as hard as we can to get better" from a sweep.

I think, in general, the sort of slow progression to being a "legitimate Cup contending team" you're talking about is a little bit outdated. I think it speaks to what happend pre-2004 where teams would come into the playoffs with a ton of talent but be unprepared for going up against a talented/skilled veteran team with experience. These days...a team's first taste of the playoffs can be a deep run.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think we all just need to go for a beer or ten and deal with it that way. Tmlfans meet up to drink and sob.

I haven't had a drink since that game, nor did I that night and it's extra difficult to deal with all of this completely sober.

 

[Redleaf]

False dichotomy or not. My point was pretty easy to understand. Even with the ten minute collapse at the worst possible moment of the series, they were pretty competitive the majority of the other 410 minutes. Looking at the series as a whole, its hard to say they didn't make some significant strides towards becoming a legitimate playoff team. Whether or not they could perform well in the playoffs was certainly in question at the end of the regular season. Was it not?

But I think the point that you're overlooking is that the Leafs competitiveness throughout the series, especially laudable or not, is precisely why this loss has hit some people so hard and why it could prove to be tough to deal with for a fan or potentially a player.

The people who questioned whether the Leafs could be a competitive team in the playoffs were shown that they could. That many of their preconceived notions about playoff hockey in the modern NHL were a little outdated. The Leafs, and this should have been evident by how they performed this season, could play with Boston.

The problem with the connection you're trying to make is A) as I say the sorts of explosions you're talking about don't really happen anymore and B) there's really nothing to support the idea that this sort of loss, that can hit harder than a sweep is more character building than any other sort of loss. The Leafs takeaway from this series could be "We had the talent but we don't have the heart/fortitude/leadership/whatever other nonsense platitude to do it" and they could take "We're not good enough we have to work as hard as we can to get better" from a sweep.

I think, in general, the sort of slow progression to being a "legitimate Cup contending team" you're talking about is a little bit outdated. I think it speaks to what happend pre-2004 where teams would come into the playoffs with a ton of talent but be unprepared for going up against a talented/skilled veteran team with experience. These days...a team's first taste of the playoffs can be a deep run.

My argument was based on a 'before the playoffs began point of view', and whether or not most fans would have taken this last period collapse if they also knew it meant the Leafs fought the good fight and took the former champs to a seventh game.

If you had offered that sort of scenario up, I think most fans would have taken that and run away.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I'm over it. Yeah it sucks huge but I like the development we saw from some key players.

I'm excited to see a full season of Lupul and Gardiner next year, and think that Kessel, JVR and Reimer took huge steps in the playoffs.

I think we'll see further development from Kadri and Frattin.

Beyond that we've got some question marks. I'd give Colborne a shot as 3rd line C, maybe let Bozak and Mac walk (ideally we would've moved them but it's too late now), possibly buy out Grabbo and try to move Liles (if a decent return can be had).

I've said it elsewhere, but I'd like to see Clarkson on this team. He may not be worth his price tag in the end, but he can do a bit of everything, is tough, can hit and is a hometown boy (I went to high school with him). Consider him a top 2 line replacement for Orr's 1M on the 4th line and his salary is probably not too bad (vs. say what Richards produced this year @ 7M).

Beyond that I'm not sure of the other options....

 

[moon111]

I was wondering why Boston wasn't putting pressure on the Leafs, because they were successful when they did.  It was like their defense first mentality was clouding their judgement.  At 4-1, I didn't take anything for granted.

 

[Bonsixx]

You didn't think Leafs fans would come to a Leafs fansite to talk about how they felt about the most painful loss for Leafs fans in about a decade?

Curious...

 

[Jolly good show chaps]

Morning chaps, pip pip.

Waited a few days before asking this...is Phaneuf a potential trade or buy-out candidate this summer given performance compared to salary along with now having a new GM who didn't trade for him?

 

[Kin]

My argument was based on a 'before the playoffs began point of view', and whether or not most fans would have taken this last period collapse if they also knew it meant the Leafs fought the good fight and took the former champs to a seventh game.

If you had offered that sort of scenario up, I think most fans would have taken that and run away.

1) I don't think that's true and 2) Even if it is, I don't think it's based on anything other than personal preference. Like I said, there's no particular reason to believe this is a better outcome for the future than any other outcome.

Regardless, it's still an entirely false dichotomy. Again, it was a 4 seed vs. a 5 seed. To take some sort of comfort in the fact that the Leafs didn't lose 6-0 every night would be underselling the Leafs and what they accomplished this year, both against the Bruins and against the league as a whole. People took this loss hard because the Leafs showed they could beat the Bruins. You may as well say that, sure, it was a very tough loss to take but you'd rather have that happen than the ACC burn down.

 

[Redleaf]

My argument was based on a 'before the playoffs began point of view', and whether or not most fans would have taken this last period collapse if they also knew it meant the Leafs fought the good fight and took the former champs to a seventh game.

If you had offered that sort of scenario up, I think most fans would have taken that and run away.

1) I don't think that's true and 2) Even if it is, I don't think it's based on anything other than personal preference. Like I said, there's no particular reason to believe this is a better outcome for the future than any other outcome.

Fine. You believe what you want, but it's not too difficult to go back on this forum and get a collaborating vibe about it.

 

[Kin]

You believe what you want, but it's not too difficult to go back on this forum and get a collaborating vibe about it.

Indeed it ain't:

That said, I don't think there's much chance we win it.  But neither do I think we go out in 4 or 5.  I'm thinking B's in 6.

I think the Leafs have a chance if they can at least split the first two games.

Screw this "Oh, no, it's the Bruins!  Nooooo!!"

Leafs in 6.

I'll say this one will be a long battle, a 50-50 kinda series.

This should be a good series. Leafs have a chance for sure.

It really doesn't matter which team we play. As long as this team shows up each game and plays the way they are capable of playing, we can win.

The idea that people had no expectations that the Leafs could make this a hard fought series or even win the series is just flat out not true. Many people went into this predicting a significantly better outcome than a devastating game 7 loss. You know, people like this:

Leafs in 7.

 

[Redleaf]

You believe what you want, but it's not too difficult to go back on this forum and get a collaborating vibe about it.

Indeed it ain't:

That said, I don't think there's much chance we win it.  But neither do I think we go out in 4 or 5.  I'm thinking B's in 6.

I think the Leafs have a chance if they can at least split the first two games.

Screw this "Oh, no, it's the Bruins!  Nooooo!!"

Leafs in 6.

I'll say this one will be a long battle, a 50-50 kinda series.

This should be a good series. Leafs have a chance for sure.

It really doesn't matter which team we play. As long as this team shows up each game and plays the way they are capable of playing, we can win.

The idea that people had no expectations that the Leafs could make this a hard fought series or even win the series is just flat out not true. Many people went into this predicting a significantly better outcome than a devastating game 7 loss. You know, people like this:

Leafs in 7.

There are many more that predicted a sweep, or close to it. I picked the Leafs in seven, but I had some very severe doubts about it. Again, I believe most people, including myself, would have been happy, at least at the outset, with a game seven loss, no matter how it ended.

 

[Kin]

There are many more that predicted a sweep, or close to it.

Prove it. I just took those examples from the first 5 pages of the game 1 game day thread. There wasn't a single person who picked the Bruins to sweep or win in 5. Some people said they didn't think the Leafs would win but, again, not a single person thought it would be a disaster and lend credence to what you're saying.

edit: Fanatic said he "expected the Leafs to be swept" on page 6. Still the only one I can see.

 

[Redleaf]

There are many more that predicted a sweep, or close to it.

Prove it. I just took those examples from the first 5 pages of the game 1 game day thread. There wasn't a single person who picked the Bruins to sweep or win in 5. Some people said they didn't think the Leafs would win but, again, not a single person thought it would be a disaster and lend credence to what you're saying.

edit: Fanatic said he "expected the Leafs to be swept" on page 6. Still the only one I can see.

Show me the media quotes where anyone predicted a Leaf win? You can argue all you want, but the general consensus was the Bruins win this. I'm not sure why you feel you need to disprove this?

Either way, once the Leafs won the second game, it became clear that the Leafs could compete, and once they came back and won game six I'm sure most people had changed their perceptions about the matchup, myself included.

So, while it doesn't matter what people thought before the series got underway, I still believe most would have been happy to see them take it to seven, even with a loss. Do you agree with that?

Is your argument about that or the collapse? I'm sure you lost me on what you are arguing about now.

 

[Mack674]

There are many more that predicted a sweep, or close to it.

Prove it. I just took those examples from the first 5 pages of the game 1 game day thread. There wasn't a single person who picked the Bruins to sweep or win in 5. Some people said they didn't think the Leafs would win but, again, not a single person thought it would be a disaster and lend credence to what you're saying.

edit: Fanatic said he "expected the Leafs to be swept" on page 6. Still the only one I can see.

TSN actually predicted the Bruins in 5.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=422033

Unless of course you're just talking about the guys on this site. I had predicted leafs in 7. So close..

 

[Kin]

Show me the media quotes where anyone predicted a Leaf win?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=668499

There's three, including Kevin Weekes and EJ Hradek.

You can argue all you want, but the general consensus was the Bruins win this. I'm not sure why you feel you need to disprove this?

Well, I don't need to but it's real easy to because you are absolutely wrong in saying that among fans, as evidenced by us here, that there was a widespread consensus that the Leafs wouldn't make a series of it or even fail to win it outright. I mean, for pete's sake, YOU predicted the Leafs would win the series. You're whole point is about what fan's expectations were(because until I showed you the consensus here and you shifted the question to the media you asked repeatedly what "fans" would be happy with) vs. what happened and the fans expectations were not that the Leafs were no match for the Bruins.

Either way, once the Leafs won the second game, it became clear that the Leafs could compete, and once they came back and won game six I'm sure most people had changed their perceptions about the matchup, myself included.

So when they won game two it changed your perception from before the series when you predicted Leafs in 7? When the Leafs forced a game seven it changed your perception when you predicted Leafs in 7? I mean, before you argue with me you may want to settle the argument you seem to be having with yourself.

So, while it doesn't matter what people thought before the series got underway, I still believe most would have been happy to see them take it to seven, even with a loss. Do you agree with that?

So people's perceptions of the Leafs chances before the series doesn't matter but people would have been happy with a seven game series even if they lost based on...their perceptions of the Leafs chances before the series? What in the world would I be basing that happiness on if not what I thought the Leafs would do against the Bruins.

I mean, I can't agree with it if I don't even understand it. If you were someone who predicted the Leafs would win the series, and again you were, then no, I don't imagine you would be happy with a loss regardless of the circumstances.

Is your argument about that or the collapse? I'm sure you lost me on what you are arguing about now.

You said that you thought fans would be happy with the results because they were better than being blown out every game. I said that people didn't expect the Leafs to be blown out every game so they're not likely to look at it that way. You said that no, everyone thought the Leafs would get killed. I proved that wasn't the case. You said that what I needed to do was show where the Media said they wouldn't get killed. I did that. You said that the general consensus was that the Leafs would lose because, again, facts are not getting through to you.  Then you said that fans perceptions before the series don't matter but people should be happy regardless. I started wondering if this was all some sort of elaborate prank on your part.

That's where we are now.

 

[Kin]

TSN actually predicted the Bruins in 5.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=422033

Unless of course you're just talking about the guys on this site. I had predicted leafs in 7. So close..

The post I'm replying to there was in reference to this earlier post:

Fine. You believe what you want, but it's not too difficult to go back on this forum and get a collaborating vibe about it.

The original point, now lost in the ether, was about how we as fans should look at the series. I'm sure there are lots of people on Bruins websites or in the media(In the case you link to, Scott Cullen as opposed to TSN as the behemoth of hockey coverage) who may have predicted something else but fans of the Leafs did not seem to think the Leafs couldn't win the series.

 

[TML fan]

I deal with it by accepting it for what it is. An abysmal failure. With a 3 goal lead and 10 minutes to go, it was their series to lose. Everything that happened before that point doesn't matter.