Do you believe Burke would draft Rielly first overall?

[Corn Flake]

Reason #1: Last year of Burke's contract. Adding a talented 18 year old defenseman could be just that piece of optimism that gets Burke an extension from the penny pinchers at Rogers and Bell.

I would think getting this team into the playoffs, fixing the goaltending situation and maybe signing one of the big name UFA's would go a lot further than wedging his highly touted pick into the NHL prematurely.  After the way things went with Schenn I think concerns and eyebrows would be raised if they DID keep this kid.

Funny thing is, Nonis effectively got canned in Vancouver because he refused to shortcut the development of the team. He had ownership pressure to speed things up but he wouldn't do it and they replaced him.  He carried through Burke's plans which were they were not going to rush the process.  I think the same thing is happening here and will continue no matter what ownership says (and probably won't say).

Burke doesn't really strike me as an owner's pet type of guy so expecting him to do things to save his job doesn't really go with his track record.

Reason #2: Burke stated that the Leafs had him rated no. 1 in this draft. If I'd ever heard a tee-up for high early expectations...

Yeah but that doesn't mean they think he's ready for prime time NHL duty out of the gate.  Expectations high? Yep.  They would have been anyway no matter what he said.

Reason #3: The type of talent this kid has. He'll look good against pros because he's bringing the effortless skating and puck handling skills that stand out in training camps.

He absolutely will look good.  Kadri looked good in 2 of his 3 camps but was demoted.  I think the coaches and the Execs can see through the flash and dash and notice the things that will stick out as a kid learning the game.  I think in light of everything that has gone on here the last 3-4 years they will be more cautious than ever about bringing a kid along too soon.

Reason #4: History. This organization has no issues with playing 18 year olds when they are deemed to be good enough for the NHL.

Yes but so far under Burke they have not done this.

 

[Kin]

Why was this thread even created... ???

I don't think it's a fundamentally unfair question because one of two things is going here, both of which are interesting. On the one hand, Burke has a view of the talent in this draft that is almost entirely different than the vast majority of everyone else. If that's true, I think it tells us something interesting about Burke and the way he's building this team. It would, I think, shed some light on some of Burke's moves for better or for worse.

On the other hand, though, Burke would be almost sort of casually lying to the media and, by extension, the fanbase. If that's true then it's not only something that people should keep in mind going forward but it creates an interesting point about what a GM's responsibilities are to the fanbase and/or whether or not lying about stuff like this might end up helping the team.

 

[Corn Flake]

What I'm more concerned about is that it's a virtual lock that Burke will want this guy in the team's lineup in the fall.

Oh please oh please can we place some money on that statement?

Sure. Loser donates $25 to TMLFans.ca.

If Morgan Rielly plays 1 game or more for the Toronto Maple Leafs during the 2012-13 regular season excepting games after the WHL season has ended, you donate $25 to www.tmlfans.ca (I'm assuming you're not an owner of the site).

If Morgan Rielly is returned to juniors without playing an NHL game in the 2012-13 regular season, I'll donate $25 to www.tmlfans.ca.

Are we on?

Sure.  Done.  No I am not an owner of the site.

I'm fine with this bet, but wouldn't be surprised if they gave him a few games at the start of the year for a taste, but I'll go with the bet anyway. 

 

[LeafsInSeven]

What I'm more concerned about is that it's a virtual lock that Burke will want this guy in the team's lineup in the fall.

Oh please oh please can we place some money on that statement?

Sure. Loser donates $25 to TMLFans.ca.

If Morgan Rielly plays 1 game or more for the Toronto Maple Leafs during the 2012-13 regular season excepting games after the WHL season has ended, you donate $25 to www.tmlfans.ca (I'm assuming you're not an owner of the site).

If Morgan Rielly is returned to juniors without playing an NHL game in the 2012-13 regular season, I'll donate $25 to www.tmlfans.ca.

Are we on?

Sure.  Done.  No I am not an owner of the site.

I'm fine with this bet, but wouldn't be surprised if they gave him a few games at the start of the year for a taste, but I'll go with the bet anyway.

Cool.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Is this just another example of people reading too much into what Burke says? I mean, a lot of people take what he says as gospel and then end up being disappointed in situations, because Burke didn't follow through on exactly what he said, word for word.

The Leafs rated Morgan Rielly very high, is it much deeper than that? I think they had him #3 on their list and when Yakupov and Galchenyuk were drafted, Rielly became the #1 pick for the Leafs from their list. Is it any deeper than that?

 

[Kin]

Is this just another example of people reading too much into what Burke says? I mean, a lot of people take what he says as gospel and then end up being disappointed in situations, because Burke didn't follow through on exactly what he said, word for word.

The Leafs rated Morgan Rielly very high, is it much deeper than that? I think they had him #3 on their list and when Yakupov and Galchenyuk were drafted, Rielly became the #1 pick for the Leafs from their list. Is it any deeper than that?

If that's true, why not say something to that effect? Why create the extra expectations with saying they thought he was the #1 pick on merit?

 

[LeafsInSeven]

Yes but so far under Burke they have not done this.

Really, Burke has only had one real opportunity to do this with Kadri who was clearly too slight and a defensive liability at 18, 19. Otherwise he traded away his other possibilities for Phil Kessel.

I'll also point out that he did allow Jerry D'Amigo to play in the AHL at 19 and put Matt Frattin straight into the NHL lineup out of college without any AHL time.

The things against my prediction start with the presence of Jake Gardiner who is a similar sort of talent. Also the potential arrival of Holzer (transparently hyped by Burke, I believe, not that good in the AHL, definite Wozniewski vibe) and/or Granberg (actual sounds like the real deal and physically ready for the NHL). Then there's trades and injuries.

 

[sampson]

During the interview, Burke said he had him rated first overall in the draft. Said if he had the 1st pick in the draft, he would have taken him. A few minutes later he was asked about move up or move down options and he stated that he had a move-up option, but it was too expensive. How much worse would that have been if he moved up at this "expensive" price, and still picked Rielly? I'm happy how things turned out.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If that's true, why not say something to that effect? Why create the extra expectations with saying they thought he was the #1 pick on merit?

To make Rielly feel good? Does it really matter? People should know by now that Burke is a blowhard, I don't take everything he says to mean exactly what he is going to do. He makes adjustments on the fly, doesn't any GM?

In general, I just think people need to not put expectations out there based on what he says, there would probably be less feelings of disappointment overall. For example, did people really think he was going to pull off trading for the Tavares pick, when he said that was the goal? I don't think so, so why does everything else he says have to come true for people to be content?

 

[Corn Flake]

Yes but so far under Burke they have not done this.

Really, Burke has only had one real opportunity to do this with Kadri who was clearly too slight and a defensive liability at 18, 19. Otherwise he traded away his other possibilities for Phil Kessel.

I'll also point out that he did allow Jerry D'Amigo to play in the AHL at 19 and put Matt Frattin straight into the NHL lineup out of college without any AHL time.

The things against my prediction start with the presence of Jake Gardiner who is a similar sort of talent. Also the potential arrival of Holzer (transparently hyped by Burke, I believe, not that good in the AHL, definite Wozniewski vibe) and/or Granberg (actual sounds like the real deal and physically ready for the NHL). Then there's trades and injuries.

Kadri would be the biggest example but he has kept him more or less in the AHL despite a lot of yelling, screaming and criticism for doing so.  All in all it has been a fairly unpopular decision to keep him in the minors but they are doing what is best. 

Frattin did spend some time in the AHL before moving up on a more or less permanent basis.  He's also 23/24, not 18.

Holzer is a good example of patience and development.  Woznewski? Ouch that's just mean, man!! I don't think that is a fair comparison at all.  Holzer looked VERY good during the season and was fantastic in the post season. If he comes in next year as the #6, that role will be in good hands. 

Gardiner, the possible acquisition of Schultz and/or another UFA, the current backlog of defenders ahead of him on the depth chart will make it very hard for the Leafs to kwwp Rielly over the others.  Even though the GM is different, I hope the Schenn situation has again reminded Leafs execs why rushing a kid at 18 just because he looks amazing in camp it always a terrible idea and a completely unnecessary one. 

 

[bustaheims]

Reason #4: History. This organization has no issues with playing 18 year olds when they are deemed to be good enough for the NHL.

So, you're going to use the team's history but completely ignore Burke's? He left Bobby Ryan in junior and the AHL for 2 full seasons before he got a sniff of the the NHL roster. In his time as GM or the Nucks and the Ducks, the only player to play in the NHL the season following their draft was Ryan Kesler. Burke has a pretty extensive history of leaving prospects in junior/their European league for at least one full season after their draft year, and, in most cases, 2 or 3.

 

[Peter D.]

I didn't understand why Burke would make the comment.  It was unnecessary.   

I suggested it in the Entry Draft thread just after, but if he had just said they had Rielly as the top d-man, it would have been perfectly fine. 

 

[Corn Flake]

Reason #4: History. This organization has no issues with playing 18 year olds when they are deemed to be good enough for the NHL.

So, you're going to use the team's history but completely ignore Burke's? He left Bobby Ryan in junior and the AHL for 2 full seasons before he got a sniff of the the NHL roster. In his time as GM or the Nucks and the Ducks, the only player to play in the NHL the season following their draft was Ryan Kesler. Burke has a pretty extensive history of leaving prospects in junior/their European league for at least one full season after their draft year, and, in most cases, 2 or 3.

And for the record, Rielly is the fourth 1st-round pick Burke has made since arriving and if he does not play for the Leafs, he will be the fourth of those picks to not play for the Leafs as an 18-year old.

They want this kid to go back to the WHL and dominate, work on his leadership, play in the WJC's (where I believe he is also considered as a possible captain) and do all the things you should do when you are 18. 

 

[Zee]

Who knows maybe time will prove him right?  In 15 years we may look back and say "wow Rielly really was the best in that draft  year".  Nobody can really say at this point who are the can't miss players.  Even guys taken 1-2-3 could be busts.  This kid seems to have the skating (I heard many scouts report he was the best skater in the draft) so that's a start. 

 

[bustaheims]

They want this kid to go back to the WHL and dominate, work on his leadership, play in the WJC's (where I believe he is also considered as a possible captain) and do all the things you should do when you are 18.

My thoughts as well - especially in light of the fact that he missed so much of last season with the knee injury. There's virtually no way he cracks the Leafs roster this season. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't even get a contract until after this season.

 

[Bender]

What I'm more concerned about is that it's a virtual lock that Burke will want this guy in the team's lineup in the fall.

Oh please oh please can we place some money on that statement?

Besides the fact that the coach makes the final roster cuts in training camp...

 

[Kin]

To make Rielly feel good? Does it really matter? People should know by now that Burke is a blowhard, I don't take everything he says to mean exactly what he is going to do. He makes adjustments on the fly, doesn't any GM?

In general, I just think people need to not put expectations out there based on what he says, there would probably be less feelings of disappointment overall. For example, did people really think he was going to pull off trading for the Tavares pick, when he said that was the goal? I don't think so, so why does everything else he says have to come true for people to be content?

I think your perspective is interesting because, to me, it kind of encapsulates the divide over Burke and his management style. The Tavares thing, for me anyway, was never about the disappointment that he wasn't able to pull it off. When Burke said it was his goal my reactions were that A) It was stating something relatively benign, as it made a lot of sense for him to try and acquire a player as good as Tavares but also B) Kind of pointless, because there was no real chance the Islanders were going to trade that pick.

So the issue, as I saw it, wasn't being disappointed that Burke wasn't able to pull off the impossible but rather it was puzzlement as to why he felt the need to make it known he was going to try. To me, it seemed to do nothing but set him up for failure and create an air of disappointment around whoever it was the Leafs ended up picking.

For someone who had a very, very high opinion of Burke then, yeah, I could see how there would be a disappointment that he isn't able to do a lot of the things he says he's going to try and do but for someone who always sort of tried to judge him based on what he actually did with the team then the issue has really been about his dealing with the public and what it creates for the team in terms of expectations and pressure.

A good example, I guess, might be his stated aim of "retooling" and putting a good team together in a short period of time despite the lack of a base. The negative reaction, on my end anyway, was never that he didn't pull it off but rather that it was not a good thing to try in the first place.

So, yeah, if you came in with a hero worship of Burke then I could understand not getting why people reacted to his "failures" so harshly but, I think, the issue has never been that. The issue has more been about the actual effects of what he says.

Morgan Rielly just realized a lifelong dream by being drafted. More than that, he did it in the top 5 in the draft and with a Canadian team. I bet he's on cloud 9. There's no need to pump him up any further. The only thing Burke said is going to do is create what is probably an unrealistic level of hype for him among the rank and file.

Burke's shortcomings as a GM are another matter but, at least to me, this is another example of Burke really not being very good at dealing with the media and the nature of this team's fanbase.

 

[Bender]

What I'm more concerned about is that it's a virtual lock that Burke will want this guy in the team's lineup in the fall.

Oh please oh please can we place some money on that statement?

Sure. Loser donates $25 to TMLFans.ca.

If Morgan Rielly plays 1 game or more for the Toronto Maple Leafs during the 2012-13 regular season excepting games after the WHL season has ended, you donate $25 to www.tmlfans.ca (I'm assuming you're not an owner of the site).

If Morgan Rielly is returned to juniors without playing an NHL game in the 2012-13 regular season, I'll donate $25 to www.tmlfans.ca.

Are we on?

Sure.  Done.  No I am not an owner of the site.

I'm fine with this bet, but wouldn't be surprised if they gave him a few games at the start of the year for a taste, but I'll go with the bet anyway.

I would imagine he may even play the maximum amount of NHL games before year 1 of his contract would kick in. Don't remember the amount of games it takes though.

 

[Redleaf]

To answer the question..

If you don't include the Russians, then yes.

 

[Corn Flake]

I would imagine he may even play the maximum amount of NHL games before year 1 of his contract would kick in. Don't remember the amount of games it takes though.

It's 10 or 11 games.