Do you believe Burke would draft Rielly first overall?

[SchenNeuf]

I personally don't believe he does for the reasons outlined in this blog I contributed to tmlfans: http://www.tmlfans.ca/blogs/6314-dont-believe-burkes-hype but it begs a scary question, would Burke draft a defenceman who tore his ACL over the consensus number one pick? Not to knock Rielly, after reading up on him I think the kid has some serious potential but really?

In my humble opinion, it really was a stupid thing for him to say.  The fact is he's either full of $#!+ (which I hope is the case) or he has a really $h!tty group of scouts working for him.

 

[Corn Flake]

Burke's opinion, squared off against convention, holds sway with some and not so much with others. In light of his track record with the Leafs, I think that's more or less fair.

I'm not saying don't be skeptical that putting Rielly at #1. I'm not completely sold on that idea either.  I'm arguing that if Burke said it he probably meant it and then looking at some of the reasons why they could have rated him so high I can sort of see where he and his monstrous management team were going with Rielly.  But based on many of the rankings out there and how that first round actually went down I think it's safe to say that teams all had very different looking lists.

As far as Burke's approach to the draft, while we haven't seen a lot of fruit from it yet, it is still early, plus I like the approach of valuing character and leadership as highly as raw talent. The history he had in all of his previous stops suggests he has done quite well in the first round.  Many more hits than misses.  Without a lot of actuals to go on, I'm willing to go on the track record.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I think your perspective is interesting because, to me, it kind of encapsulates the divide over Burke and his management style. The Tavares thing, for me anyway, was never about the disappointment that he wasn't able to pull it off. When Burke said it was his goal my reactions were that A) It was stating something relatively benign, as it made a lot of sense for him to try and acquire a player as good as Tavares but also B) Kind of pointless, because there was no real chance the Islanders were going to trade that pick.

So the issue, as I saw it, wasn't being disappointed that Burke wasn't able to pull off the impossible but rather it was puzzlement as to why he felt the need to make it known he was going to try. To me, it seemed to do nothing but set him up for failure and create an air of disappointment around whoever it was the Leafs ended up picking.

For someone who had a very, very high opinion of Burke then, yeah, I could see how there would be a disappointment that he isn't able to do a lot of the things he says he's going to try and do but for someone who always sort of tried to judge him based on what he actually did with the team then the issue has really been about his dealing with the public and what it creates for the team in terms of expectations and pressure.

A good example, I guess, might be his stated aim of "retooling" and putting a good team together in a short period of time despite the lack of a base. The negative reaction, on my end anyway, was never that he didn't pull it off but rather that it was not a good thing to try in the first place.

So, yeah, if you came in with a hero worship of Burke then I could understand not getting why people reacted to his "failures" so harshly but, I think, the issue has never been that. The issue has more been about the actual effects of what he says.

Morgan Rielly just realized a lifelong dream by being drafted. More than that, he did it in the top 5 in the draft and with a Canadian team. I bet he's on cloud 9. There's no need to pump him up any further. The only thing Burke said is going to do is create what is probably an unrealistic level of hype for him among the rank and file.

Burke's shortcomings as a GM are another matter but, at least to me, this is another example of Burke really not being very good at dealing with the media and the nature of this team's fanbase.

I don't have a hero worship, however; I do think we have one of the better GM's in the league. I'm not going to get hung up on his accomplishments too much, compared to what he says in the media, as I realize that you can't accomplish everything you set out to do. There is a lot of variables that go into building a team and I know ahead of time that all the planets are not just going to align for Burke to pull off whatever he says he's going to do.

Using your example with the retooling; lots of people get really hung up on that one, because I think they thought it was really going to happen that fast, simply because Burke said that was the plan. I didn't, so when he changed gears a bit, I wasn't upset. I may have been if I didn't see him bringing in young prospects and stocking the cupboard, but he and his staff were doing that, so I saw what was happening. He counted on certain things, like the UFA season and all that, it didn't pan out like that, so, such is life.

As far as Rielly is concerned, I don't think Burke saying what he did really made that much of an impact, other than maybe the average fan going a bit literal about things, which was going to happen anyway, because he was a first round pick in the top 5. So a lot of fans are going to take care of the hype all by themselves; example, see Kadri, Nazem.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't see the point of saying it if it weren't true.

Also, "begs the question" does not mean "raises the question".

I've sought clarification on the this for a while now.  Isn't it actually "the question begs"?  After all, the question is begging to receive an answer.  By begging the question, there's nothing to get.  Right?

No. Begging the question is a fallacious statement that uses its inherent premise as proof of its validity. So, like, "Apples are the most delicious food on the planet because they're so delicious" or "You're wrong about Burke being a blowhard because Burke isn't a blowhard."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

This is where Aristotle would drop the microphone and walk offstage.

This made me laugh because I actually saw him do that once at one of those Borscht Belt resorts in the Catskills.  In fact, I happen to know that he co-wrote "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" with Zero Mostel but took his name out of the credits when they relocated to the action from Athens to Rome.  Ah, show biz....

 

[Kin]

I'm not saying don't be skeptical that putting Rielly at #1. I'm not completely sold on that idea either.  I'm arguing that if Burke said it he probably meant it and then looking at some of the reasons why they could have rated him so high I can sort of see where he and his monstrous management team were going with Rielly.  But based on many of the rankings out there and how that first round actually went down I think it's safe to say that teams all had very different looking lists.

Well, that or not everyone takes the same BPA at all costs approach to the draft. Like I said in the draft thread between where the Leafs drafted and where Forsberg/Grigorenko picked you had a lot of teams who were packed to the gills with elite forwards(Anaheim, Pittsburgh) or are set at #1 C(Minnesota, TB).

Anyways, I  largely agree with you. I said it earlier, it doesn't make any sense to say it if it isn't what Burke really believes.

As far as Burke's approach to the draft, while we haven't seen a lot of fruit from it yet, it is still early, plus I like the approach of valuing character and leadership as highly as raw talent. The history he had in all of his previous stops suggests he has done quite well in the first round.  Many more hits than misses.  Without a lot of actuals to go on, I'm willing to go on the track record.

I don't know if it's realistic to, when looking at a GM's track record, entirely isolate the draft from all other matters of personnel. When a Leafs fan is deciding on the amount of faith he has in the team's GM I think they're more likely to say "Well, how has he done as GM of the Leafs" than "Well, how did he draft in his career".

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

My interpretation is that this thread shows just how much everything in Toronto hockey is brutally over-analyzed.

Pretty much...

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm not saying don't be skeptical that putting Rielly at #1. I'm not completely sold on that idea either.  I'm arguing that if Burke said it he probably meant it and then looking at some of the reasons why they could have rated him so high I can sort of see where he and his monstrous management team were going with Rielly.  But based on many of the rankings out there and how that first round actually went down I think it's safe to say that teams all had very different looking lists.

As far as Burke's approach to the draft, while we haven't seen a lot of fruit from it yet, it is still early, plus I like the approach of valuing character and leadership as highly as raw talent. The history he had in all of his previous stops suggests he has done quite well in the first round.  Many more hits than misses.  Without a lot of actuals to go on, I'm willing to go on the track record.

I think that's an important part in evaluating Burke's statement. Aside from performing extremely well in the strength department, apparenlty Rielly was "off-the-charts" in the psychological (sorry if that's the wrong word) review.

 

[Kin]

Using your example with the retooling; lots of people get really hung up on that one, because I think they thought it was really going to happen that fast, simply because Burke said that was the plan. I didn't, so when he changed gears a bit, I wasn't upset. I may have been if I didn't see him bringing in young prospects and stocking the cupboard, but he and his staff were doing that, so I saw what was happening. He counted on certain things, like the UFA season and all that, it didn't pan out like that, so, such is life.

Like I said, I think you're misreading the reaction there. Trust me, there were a lot of people here on the board who reacted negatively to the idea of a short-term retool at the time because it didn't strike them as a responsible way to build a team that was as devoid of talent as those Maple Leafs were. Negative reaction to that is much more "That was a bad approach to take" than it is "That failed, therefore I'm unhappy".

 

[Kin]

I think that's an important part in evaluating Burke's statement. Aside from performing extremely well in the strength department, apparenlty Rielly was "off-the-charts" in the psychological (sorry if that's the wrong word) review.

So he's got a really pretty girlfriend then?

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't know if it's realistic to, when looking at a GM's track record, entirely isolate the draft from all other matters of personnel. When a Leafs fan is deciding on the amount of faith he has in the team's GM I think they're more likely to say "Well, how has he done as GM of the Leafs" than "Well, how did he draft in his career".

Ok but what I am saying is the amount of time gone by isn't enough to evaluate his draft record in Toronto, so I look back a bit further and see what he came up with, and it looks pretty good.  It's not a deciding factor, but it's a factor IMO.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Like I said, I think you're misreading the reaction there. Trust me, there were a lot of people here on the board who reacted negatively to the idea of a short-term retool at the time because it didn't strike them as a responsible way to build a team that was as devoid of talent as those Maple Leafs were. Negative reaction to that is much more "That was a bad approach to take" than it is "That failed, therefore I'm unhappy".

Maybe, but I really didn't care where he was going to get his building blocks. Whether it was from drafting, trade or free agent un-drafted types, or a combination of all of them (like he has) as long as he got younger and tried to find skill anywhere he could. I think he could have pulled it off, if certain things would have gone right for him.

Either way, I don't care that he virtually landed in the same position more or less. I just don't want to micro-analyze it to death, I can see that he's going in the right direction, at least it appears that way to me.

 

[Kin]

Ok but what I am saying is the amount of time gone by isn't enough to evaluate his draft record in Toronto, so I look back a bit further and see what he came up with, and it looks pretty good.  It's not a deciding factor, but it's a factor IMO.

No, I get that and it's not an unfair point. I just think that a much bigger factor is going to be their perception of the job he's done as GM of the Leafs as a whole.

 

[Kin]

Maybe, but I really didn't care where he was going to get his building blocks. Whether it was from drafting, trade or free agent un-drafted types, or a combination of all of them (like he has) as long as he got younger and tried to find skill anywhere he could. I think he could have pulled it off, if certain things would have gone right for him.

But that's the argument against that approach. Burke's approach working out depended on "things going right for him" when they were entirely outside of his control.

The negative reaction to this, as I've been saying, reflects the attitude towards Burke in general. Yes, you think he's one of the league's best GM's and he's done a good job with the Leafs but the doubt and lack of faith comes from people who think the opposite.

 

[Tigger]

If Morgan Rielly plays 1 game or more...

Say he plays a game, what do you think that proves?

Talk about taking something completely out of context. Yikes.

What's out of context? I'm asking what you hope to prove with that bet, nothing more.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

The negative reaction to this, as I've been saying, reflects the attitude towards Burke in general. Yes, you think he's one of the league's best GM's and he's done a good job with the Leafs but the doubt and lack of faith comes from people who think the opposite.

Which is why you had such a difficult weekend, because he didn't do what you thought he should. I didn't put expectations on it.

 

[Redleaf]

Ok but what I am saying is the amount of time gone by isn't enough to evaluate his draft record in Toronto, so I look back a bit further and see what he came up with, and it looks pretty good.  It's not a deciding factor, but it's a factor IMO.

No, I get that and it's not an unfair point. I just think that a much bigger factor is going to be their perception of the job he's done as GM of the Leafs as a whole.

Whats the time allowance supposed to be though? We saw some pretty decent picks by JFJ not come to light until well after he had moved on.

 

[Kin]

Which is why you had such a difficult weekend, because he didn't do what you thought he should. I didn't put expectations on it.

Well, if we're going to be dismissive like that it's pretty easy for me to say that Burke could burn down the ACC and you'd start talking about how much you like outdoor hockey.

 

[Kin]

Whats the time allowance supposed to be though? We saw some pretty decent picks by JFJ not come to light until well after he had moved on.

Well, like I said, a fan's reading of how the GM is doing is not going to be limited to the draft.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Well, if we're going to be dismissive like that it's pretty easy for me to say that Burke could burn down the ACC and you'd start talking about how much you like outdoor hockey.

Just like you're being dismissive about the fact that you were pissed this weekend, I think people here know your posting well enough to know when you are upset.

I felt confident knowing that the Leafs were going to get a good player either way. Would I have liked it to be Galchenyuk? Sure I would have, but I also didn't expect it, or that Burke was going to move up and get into that range. With the amount of defensemen rated high in this draft, there was a high probability that we were going to end up with a blueliner, short of a trade down.

 

[Kin]

Just like you're being dismissive about the fact that you were pissed this weekend, I think people here know your posting well enough to know when you are upset.

No, I'd just flat out dispute that as a "fact". I didn't like the decisions that were made and the way this team is being mismanaged frustrates me but the fact that I was cracking jokes throughout is a good sign that I wasn't "pissed" or angry.

I felt confident knowing that the Leafs were going to get a good player either way.

I think that's a sign of just how low a bar you've set for Burke. Short of letting the pick be made with by a monkey with a dartboard there's no way to have the #5 pick in a draft and not walk away with a prospect that people will say nice things about.