Game 15 - Panthers @ Leafs - Tues 11-08 - 7 PM SportsNet

[Kin]

But like you said, at some point you can score or you can't, and apart from the one, they didn't capitalize on their chances.

Sure. And that reflected well both on how Gus played in the 1st as well as poorly on the Panthers forwards. But the Panthers not scoring doesn't reflect well on the defence necessarily and not in this case specifically.

 

[Kin]

by the way Nik, the monster had another bad game statistically.  His save percentage was 0.857 and his GA was 3.  As I said before, you will not win consistently with a goalie whose gaa is 3 or over and whose save percentage was below 0.900.

What did that poor straw man ever do to you?

 

[Damian]

I don't know why, but this bugged me a lot more than it should have:

mirtle: There was an interesting contrast between the goalies tonight, as Gustavsson said he was unlucky while Scrivens said he didn't play well.

Gustavsson needs to own up to his play tonight. There was some bad luck there, sure, but, he did not play well either - and, I'd say it was more poor play than poor luck.

Unlucky? Hell no! A total spazz? Yeh..... first goal, not even sure what to say, may have just as well been on skis on that one... second goal, sad sack puckhandling and awareness... 3rd goal. a b ig fate hole in yer glove... please dude, admit it... you bite

 

[Strangelove]

To blame the goalies after an effort like that is ludicrous.  I know it's fashionable to rip on Gus but the Leafs as a whole got destroyed tonight, just as they did the other night, just as they could have against Nashville were it not for Scrivens' heroics.  Our defenseman (and forwards) are leaving the goaltenders out to dry far too often, and it's going to sink the team unless Ron can figure out what's going on.

 

[Stebro]

I didn't watch the game, and I'm glad that I didn't, seems as if Gustavsson was bad. However how often do you win games when scoring 1 goal?

 

[Stebro]

I don't like Gustavsson's post game interview, seems as if he just blamed other things.

 

[hockeyfan1]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400046944


The Maple Leafs, struggling without injured goalie James Reimer, were booed by the home fans for the second straight game after Jonas Gustavsson surrendered three soft goals.

"They've got to work hard in practice," Wilson said. "That's their responsibility to sit there with (goalie coach Francois Allaire) and go over the games. At least we go on the road, where maybe they can relax a little bit and not worry about what's going to happen if they make a mistake.

Fans cheered when Leafs coach Ron Wilson sent Scrivens in to replace him.

"We've got to shore up our goaltending obviously," Wilson said.

...and fast, too!   

 

[Mack674]

It's been long enough and I havn't noticed any significant change in his play since he arrived here years ago. Gustavsson just, isn't that good.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

It's been long enough and I havn't noticed any significant change in his play since he arrived here years ago. Gustavsson just, isn't that good.

I think his puck moving improved greatly(last night's gaffe aside). Besides that he is exactly like he was: brilliant when it comes to a desperation saves and atrocious positionally.

 

[Erndog]

by the way Nik, the monster had another bad game statistically.  His save percentage was 0.857 and his GA was 3.  As I said before, you will not win consistently with a goalie whose gaa is 3 or over and whose save percentage was below 0.900.

What did that poor straw man ever do to you?

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

 

[cw]

I don't like Gustavsson's post game interview, seems as if he just blamed other things.

In Scrivens interview, he himself mentioned Gus had had some unlucky bounces.

Kulemin took him out on the first goal.

The puck did move away from the boards as it went around the back of the net on the second goal. I couldn't conclude whether it took a funny bounce or not on that replay. The quality of video I looked at wasn't good enough. The puck did not travel around the edge of the boards in a 'simple' path - that much is certain.

On the third goal, when I first saw it, I thought the shot would have gone top corner. Instead, on the replay, it looks like it hits the shaft of Liles stick and deflects somewhat downward. It definitely was not a pure whiff on Gustavsson's part as the puck did change direction and kind of quickly knuckled it's way to the net.

On the allegation above that Gustavsson let in three soft goals, I have some definite issues based upon the replays. In my opinion, he did suffer some misfortune/unlucky bounces and it was fair to say at least some of that is what went on and maybe misfortune played a part in all three goals.

As for his body of work this season:
.878 save%
3.74 GAA
4W-4L
Those numbers are not all the result of unlucky bounces and bad defensive play. All goalies suffer some bad luck. In Gustavsson's case, there's more than a bunch of bad luck or bad team defensive play going on with those numbers.

 

[Bullfrog]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

I don't agree the performances were of the same calibre. Gustavsson gives me a lot more confidence than Toskala.

 

[Erndog]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

I don't agree the performances were of the same calibre. Gustavsson gives me a lot more confidence than Toskala.

Ok, we can agree to disagree.  But how can you honestly say the performances were not of the same caliber? 

Out of 41 goalies ranked for SV% Gustavsson is #40 only ahead of Steve Mason.  This was pretty common territory for Toskala also.  His GAA is close to 4.

Having more confidence in Gutavsson is fine but it doesn't mean their performances were different.  Out of all the goalies in the league they basically perfomed the same.  Bottom 5ish territory.  To me that is same caliber.

 

[Bender]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

I don't agree the performances were of the same calibre. Gustavsson gives me a lot more confidence than Toskala.

Ok, we can agree to disagree.  But how can you honestly say the performances were not of the same caliber? 

Out of 41 goalies ranked for SV% Gustavsson is #40 only ahead of Steve Mason.  This was pretty common territory for Toskala also.  His GAA is close to 4.

Having more confidence in Gutavsson is fine but it doesn't mean their performances were different.  Out of all the goalies in the league they basically perfomed the same.  Bottom 5ish territory.  To me that is same caliber.

While the stats are flawed, and Goose  battles a lot harder than Toskala ever has, the point remains that both gave up at least one softie a night, and goals came in bunches. Put in Ryan Miller or Lundqvist or Rinne and I guarantee this team would be far, far different, even with our shortcomings.

 

[Erndog]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

I don't agree the performances were of the same calibre. Gustavsson gives me a lot more confidence than Toskala.

Ok, we can agree to disagree.  But how can you honestly say the performances were not of the same caliber? 

Out of 41 goalies ranked for SV% Gustavsson is #40 only ahead of Steve Mason.  This was pretty common territory for Toskala also.  His GAA is close to 4.

Having more confidence in Gutavsson is fine but it doesn't mean their performances were different.  Out of all the goalies in the league they basically perfomed the same.  Bottom 5ish territory.  To me that is same caliber.

While the stats are flawed, and Goose  battles a lot harder than Toskala ever has, the point remains that both gave up at least one softie a night, and goals came in bunches. Put in Ryan Miller or Lundqvist or Rinne and I guarantee this team would be far, far different, even with our shortcomings.

I agree stats aren't everything, but like cw pointed out today, they certainly tell part of it. 

And what makes Gus battle more?  The fact he freaks out and breaks his stick every so often?  The fact he gets visibily upset in the net?  That was actually a big reason why I liked Reimer at first, he seems so much more calm, cool and collected in the net.

Either way you slice it, most teams have 2 goalies right?  Some 3.  If you take all ~65 goalies in the NHL and rank them based on performance over the last 2 years you can make a strong case that Gustavsson is bottom 5.  Pick the 2 years Toskala was here and the very same thing can be said.  Bottom 5.

To me, that is the same caliber goalie.

 

[Bullfrog]

I can't argue those stats, Erndog, nor am I going to try to change your mind. However, I really do think Gus has been a bit of a victim of some bad luck.

Last night's game for example: I find it hard to blame him for Kulemin dragging him out of position nor for the puck dipping on him after being deflected. I definitely put some blame on him for the other goal (regardless if it was a bad bounce) because he's scary when he ventures out of the crease.

With both Raycroft and Toskala, their glove hands were atrocious. I don't see huge weaknesses on Gustavsson like that, other than his stickhandling and perhaps a lack of concentration.

 

[bustaheims]

With both Raycroft and Toskala, their glove hands were atrocious. I don't see huge weaknesses on Gustavsson like that, other than his stickhandling and perhaps a lack of concentration.

His rebound control isn't great either and his positioning still needs some work.

 

[Kin]

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

Considering that my "backing" him has consisted of saying pretty regularly that he hasn't played well I'd say you have a pretty low threshold for what you find funny.

 

[Bender]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

I don't agree the performances were of the same calibre. Gustavsson gives me a lot more confidence than Toskala.

Ok, we can agree to disagree.  But how can you honestly say the performances were not of the same caliber? 

Out of 41 goalies ranked for SV% Gustavsson is #40 only ahead of Steve Mason.  This was pretty common territory for Toskala also.  His GAA is close to 4.

Having more confidence in Gutavsson is fine but it doesn't mean their performances were different.  Out of all the goalies in the league they basically perfomed the same.  Bottom 5ish territory.  To me that is same caliber.

While the stats are flawed, and Goose  battles a lot harder than Toskala ever has, the point remains that both gave up at least one softie a night, and goals came in bunches. Put in Ryan Miller or Lundqvist or Rinne and I guarantee this team would be far, far different, even with our shortcomings.

I agree stats aren't everything, but like cw pointed out today, they certainly tell part of it. 

And what makes Gus battle more?  The fact he freaks out and breaks his stick every so often?  The fact he gets visibily upset in the net?  That was actually a big reason why I liked Reimer at first, he seems so much more calm, cool and collected in the net.

Either way you slice it, most teams have 2 goalies right?  Some 3.  If you take all ~65 goalies in the NHL and rank them based on performance over the last 2 years you can make a strong case that Gustavsson is bottom 5.  Pick the 2 years Toskala was here and the very same thing can be said.  Bottom 5.

To me, that is the same caliber goalie.

I'm not disagreeing. At all.

 

[Kin]

You were one of Raycrofts harshest critics (and Toskalas too I believe).

I find it a little funny how you've decided to back Gustavsson through all this while you hammered Toskala/Raycroft for pretty much the exact same performance.

Also, while I'm here:

If you're looking for consistency in my arguments re: those goalies it's going to require you to actually read or recall what I actually said about those goalies and, sorry to say, it's not as easy or simplistic as "Raycroft bad, Gustavsson good".

What I've always been about, consistently, is wanting a narrative to emerge about the Maple Leafs that is consistent with reality. One of the reasons I was, in your words, one of Raycroft's harshest critics is because there were people who, all throughout Raycroft's one season as the starter, were genuinely claiming that he was playing well. That his win total(Leafs record!) proved he was an effective goalie. That narrative didn't match itself up at all with what I saw and I argued strongly against it.

Likewise, the narrative I've consistently argued against regarding Gustavsson this year has been people who have been unfairly singling him out for criticism and putting the weight of losses solely on his shoulders, not any criticism of him, or people who are using different standards for Gus then they were for Reimer when judging poor play or being so regimented and narrow that they would call his performance in the Philadelphia game poor because his SV% was low and 4 goals got past him.

You don't recollect correctly with Toskala because I didn't write much about him one way or the other. I thought the narrative on him was pretty accurate. I think people agreed that in 07-08 he was mediocre and then terrible afterwards. I have nothing to add and that was a fair read of what he added to the team.

But, hey, if you can find me saying "Gus has been terrific this year" then shove it in my face but the truth is that you can't because I haven't said that. What I've objected people to are the sort of people who've watched the last two games and tried to pin the struggles on the goaltending entirely while giving the lethargic corpse masquerading itself as the rest of the team a pass.

Again, I know that isn't as simple as thumbs up and thumbs down but I think it's pretty straightforward. And I'm definitely not going to take it seriously when barely literate knuckleheads think it's somehow proving me wrong to say "Hey nik, gus had a bad game last night".