Game of Thrones (S8)

[CarltonTheBear]

I get that the show had been somewhat building up to a Mad Queen angle but this article explained my issues with how it ended up happening: https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/13/18617389/game-of-thrones-daenerys-targaryen-season-8-episode-5-mad-queen

What Thrones seemed to be setting up for years was a conflict between Daenerys?s compassion and her dogged pursuit of the Iron Throne. What decision would she make when winning the crown required the loss of thousands of innocent lives? Yet this episode didn?t give us that dilemma. When Daenerys chooses to burn King?s Landing, it?s after the people of the city are ringing the bells and the Lannister soldiers have thrown down their weapons. The war is won?Dany just had to wait a bit for her armies on the ground to (peacefully) mop up before she can finally take the Red Keep. Yet it?s at that moment that Dany decides to lay waste to the city, indiscriminately pointing Drogon at both the Red Keep and innocent families.

...

It?s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it?s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys?s actions in ?The Bells? were the latter. She instigated a completely unnecessary mass killing, a vicious act that is entirely outside her established character.

What I was sorta expecting to happen with the whole bells thing was that Jamie was going to get someone to ring them as a trick when he got back to Kings Landing. Jon and the Unsullied and Dany/Drogon would have stopped their attack. Then when their guard was down the Golden Company (lol they sucked) and the Lannister army would have re-attacked them and turned the tide of the battle.

Dany would have seen this, knew that her army was losing, and maybe even sensed that Tyrion betrayed her by telling Jamie what the signal for surrender was, and THEN went all Mad-Queeny on Kings Landing. But to have her do it when the battle was over and done with was just so odd.

 

[herman]

To have her do it when the battle was over and done with was just so odd.

It's the shoehorn for justifying next week's 'shocker'.

 

[bustaheims]

But to have her do it when the battle was over and done with was just so odd.

See, that's where I disagree. Her core drive has always been centered around vengeance. Regaining the iron throne was about getting vengeance on the people that betrayed her family, the people that serve those that betrayed her family, that worship/follow/protect those people, etc. Everything she's done has been in service of revenge. In her mind, she needed to wipe these people off the map, not just defeat them - and that's something she never really shied away from acknowledging, regardless of the seemingly noble acts to took up along the way. She has basically always destroyed those who opposed her. She hasn't left them alive. That's who she is and who she always has been. It's really just that she's been positioned as the righteous option to Cersei - which really only fit because Cersei was in power and Daenerys wasn't.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

See, that's where I disagree. Her core drive has always been centered around vengeance. Regaining the iron throne was about getting vengeance on the people that betrayed her family, the people that serve those that betrayed her family, that worship/follow/protect those people, etc. Everything she's done has been in service of revenge. In her mind, she needed to wipe these people off the map, not just defeat them - and that's something she never really shied away from acknowledging, regardless of the seemingly noble acts to took up along the way. She has basically always destroyed those who opposed her. She hasn't left them alive. That's who she is and who she always has been. It's really just that she's been positioned as the righteous option to Cersei - which really only fit because Cersei was in power and Daenerys wasn't.

She literally said she didn't want to be queen of the ashes. I get her quest for vengeance but it never entailed slaughtering innocent women and children. All the conversations around whether or not to burn Kings Landing were always stopped because of the innocent lives that it would cost. She knew the people in there weren't loyal followers to their queen, they were terrified servants of a tyrant. She brought that up on numerous occasions.

 

[herman]

But to have her do it when the battle was over and done with was just so odd.

See, that's where I disagree. Her core drive has always been centered around vengeance. Regaining the iron throne was about getting vengeance on the people that betrayed her family, the people that serve those that betrayed her family, that worship/follow/protect those people, etc. Everything she's done has been in service of revenge. In her mind, she needed to wipe these people off the map, not just defeat them - and that's something she never really shied away from acknowledging, regardless of the seemingly noble acts to took up along the way. She has basically always destroyed those who opposed her. She hasn't left them alive. That's who she is and who she always has been. It's really just that she's been positioned as the righteous option to Cersei - which really only fit because Cersei was in power and Daenerys wasn't.

I like the way Nik put it in his essay above:

We were all basically on board with the idea of siege warfare, which if anyone is unaware is the mass starvation of the people we just saw her burn.

Dany's always shown compassion to those she chooses (the Dothraki, the Unsullied) who show devotion to her due to displays of power, and completely obliterated anyone she deemed outside that sphere (Bend the Knee). It reminds me a bit of my own naive reaction to the protracted war in Afghanistan: "what's taking the much more heavily armed and equipped Americans so long? They could just bomb it all away..." and then ten seconds later: "oh yeah, civilians." Dany has always been willing to use her nukes liberally.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Also Cleganebowl was beautifully shot and all but it also seemed hell'a forced. I wish they figured out a different way to make it happen. It made it seem like this was the ONLY thing either participant wanted in their lives... but if that's the case why didn't they just fight when they met at the dragon pit in season 7? At the very least it could have been done somehow around Sandor having to save Arya from the Mountain and then them fighting.

 

[Zee]

I get that the show had been somewhat building up to a Mad Queen angle but this article explained my issues with how it ended up happening: https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/13/18617389/game-of-thrones-daenerys-targaryen-season-8-episode-5-mad-queen

What Thrones seemed to be setting up for years was a conflict between Daenerys?s compassion and her dogged pursuit of the Iron Throne. What decision would she make when winning the crown required the loss of thousands of innocent lives? Yet this episode didn?t give us that dilemma. When Daenerys chooses to burn King?s Landing, it?s after the people of the city are ringing the bells and the Lannister soldiers have thrown down their weapons. The war is won?Dany just had to wait a bit for her armies on the ground to (peacefully) mop up before she can finally take the Red Keep. Yet it?s at that moment that Dany decides to lay waste to the city, indiscriminately pointing Drogon at both the Red Keep and innocent families.

...

It?s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it?s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys?s actions in ?The Bells? were the latter. She instigated a completely unnecessary mass killing, a vicious act that is entirely outside her established character.

What I was sorta expecting to happen with the whole bells thing was that Jamie was going to get someone to ring them as a trick when he got back to Kings Landing. Jon and the Unsullied and Dany/Drogon would have stopped their attack. Then when their guard was down the Golden Company (lol they sucked) and the Lannister army would have re-attacked them and turned the tide of the battle.

Dany would have seen this, knew that her army was losing, and maybe even sensed that Tyrion betrayed her by telling Jamie what the signal for surrender was, and THEN went all Mad-Queeny on Kings Landing. But to have her do it when the battle was over and done with was just so odd.

Funny, I had the exact same thoughts at the ringing of the bells, I thought it was a trick and the battle would go on after they get suckered into believing Cersei surrendered.  But no, Dany just decides to torch it up..odd

 

[Zee]

Also Cleganebowl was beautifully shot and all but it also seemed hell'a forced. I wish they figured out a different way to make it happen. It made it seem like this was the ONLY thing either participant wanted in their lives... but if that's the case why didn't they just fight when they met at the dragon pit in season 7? At the very least it could have been done somehow around Sandor having to save Arya from the Mountain and then them fighting.

Yeah the cinematography throughout the episode was great, so many amazing shots.  I just didn't like the story arc of Dany such as it was.

The death of Qyburn though was oddly satisfying..."no Gregor, listen to your queen..."...BOOM...head splat.

 

[Kin]

She literally said she didn't want to be queen of the ashes. I get her quest for vengeance but it never entailed slaughtering innocent women and children. All the conversations around whether or not to burn Kings Landing were always stopped because of the innocent lives that it would cost. She knew the people in there weren't loyal followers to their queen, they were terrified servants of a tyrant. She brought that up on numerous occasions.

Right but just about everything that's happened since the battle of Winterfell has made Danerys think that if she takes the throne without being feared then people will eventually conspire against her in order to supplant her with Jon. A thought that, while maybe farfetched, is at least somewhat helped along by us getting to see Varys, one of her trusted advisors, do that exact thing.

Danerys thinking that her grip on the throne is tenuous absent all the murder may be wrong but as someone was saying last week about Danerys and her Dragons getting ambushed, Kings and Queens throughout history have made bad, self-defeating decisions on hundreds of occasions. Again, this is one of the inherent flaws of the dictatorial monarchy based on in-breeding.

 

[Kin]

Also Cleganebowl was beautifully shot and all but it also seemed hell'a forced. I wish they figured out a different way to make it happen. It made it seem like this was the ONLY thing either participant wanted in their lives... but if that's the case why didn't they just fight when they met at the dragon pit in season 7? At the very least it could have been done somehow around Sandor having to save Arya from the Mountain and then them fighting.

This i agree with. Whatever they were going with with turning the Mountain into Frankenstein's Monster didn't work for me all series and especially not last night.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Right but just about everything that's happened since the battle of Winterfell has made Danerys think that if she takes the throne without being feared then people will eventually conspire against her in order to supplant her with Jon. A thought that, while maybe farfetched, is at least somewhat helped along by us getting to see Varys, one of her trusted advisors, do that exact thing.

Danerys thinking that her grip on the throne is tenuous absent all the murder may be wrong but as someone was saying last week about Danerys and her Dragons getting ambushed, Kings and Queens throughout history have made bad, self-defeating decisions on hundreds of occasions. Again, this is one of the inherent flaws of the dictatorial monarchy based on in-breeding.

Well I'd say having a giant dragon that showed it's capable of pretty much destroying an entire army and defensive strongholds of Kings Landing at the ready is something that would incite enough fear to keep the common folk loyal to you. She could have also later made a big public show about using Drogon to burn Cersei and other lords loyal to her like she did with the Tarly's.

Like I said I get that it's pretty clear the show was building to Dany going mad, particularly all this season, I just think they pulled the trigger in a really lazy and rushed way (something you could say about a lot of things in the show the past 2 or 3 seasons).

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Also is Euron now officially the most useless character is television history?

 

[Kin]

Well I'd say having a giant dragon that showed it's capable of pretty much destroying an entire army and defensive strongholds of Kings Landing at the ready is something that would incite enough fear to keep the common folk loyal to you. She could have also later made a big public show about using Drogon to burn Cersei and other lords loyal to her like she did with the Tarly's.

Maybe but, again, at least I think now we're talking in the right sphere. How much fear is enough fear is an inexact calculation that is not a question of madness but of wisdom and that's exactly the sort of thing Danerys lacks.

Remember, Danerys isn't just faced with people like Cersei who were perfectly willing to use human shields for her own protection. Someone she sees as her chief adversary is Sansa, someone who probably wouldn't recoil in fear at the thought of her own death for defying the Queen but would at the death of her people.

So, yeah, was it the right decision? Tough to say. Was it necessarily indicative of outright madness? Eh.

Like I said I get that it's pretty clear the show was building to Dany going mad, particularly all this season, I just think they pulled the trigger in a really lazy and rushed way (something you could say about a lot of things in the show the past 2 or 3 seasons).

Well, yeah. I mean we literally went in one episode from Arya and the Hound being all like "Awesome, we're two dope Revenganauts" to "Hey, have you considered that revenge at the cost of yourself is perhaps a lousy way to live"?

 

[Zee]

Also is Euron now officially the most useless character is television history?

He took claim to killing Jamie though.  ;D

 

[Bullfrog]

Also is Euron now officially the most useless character is television history?

Yes. Yes he is.

Impressive about that part was the two 12 inch deep stabs Jaime took to the sides which had him on the brink of death, and then he's able to muster the courage and walk down a million stairs with his sis.

Very heroic.

 

[Zee]

Also is Euron now officially the most useless character is television history?

Yes. Yes he is.

Impressive about that part was the two 12 inch deep stabs Jaime took to the sides which had him on the brink of death, and then he's able to muster the courage and walk down a million stairs with his sis.

Very heroic.

We have to gloss over stuff that didn't make any sense, like Jamie not getting through that initial gate, yet somehow meanders his way all the way to Cersei through the hidden tunnels while the entire city is being destroyed.

I dunno, I have to agree that this season seems rushed, if they had a few more episodes showing the build up to Dany going off the deep end maybe it could have worked better.  The whole Bran story is another problem, most of the time he's chilling in his wheelchair seemingly listening to music in his own head while stuff is going on around him.  Was that him as the pale horse leading Arya back?  Who the hell knows?  Jamie was on the road to redemption, falls for Brienne and then in one episode decides he's no good and has to go and be by Cersei's side again...I mean lots of things didn't add up for me.

 

[Bullfrog]

Well, yeah. I mean we literally went in one episode from Arya and the Hound being all like "Awesome, we're two dope Revenganauts" to "Hey, have you considered that revenge at the cost of yourself is perhaps a lousy way to live"?

Despite that, I would have been satisfied with Arya defeating the Mountain as the Hound dies. You know, she could have dropped out of the air, been caught, dropped her dagger, and -- well -- you know the rest.

 

[Zee]

Well, yeah. I mean we literally went in one episode from Arya and the Hound being all like "Awesome, we're two dope Revenganauts" to "Hey, have you considered that revenge at the cost of yourself is perhaps a lousy way to live"?

Despite that, I would have been satisfied with Arya defeating the Mountain as the Hound dies. You know, she could have dropped out of the air, been caught, dropped her dagger, and -- well -- you know the rest.

Only thing that could have been funnier than Gregor pulling the knife out of his own head would have been the Hound cutting his head off, and Gregor calmly picks it back up to continue the fight.  "It's just a flesh wound!"

 

[Kin]

Euron was great. There was nothing he and his boats couldn't do. Appear out of nowhere to destroy Yarra and Theon's fleet? Yup. Shoot a dragon out of the sky? Yup. Blow a ton of ships to hell and then find the one good hostage he needed in the wreckage? Yup. Dodge dragon fire in full battle armor and somehow swim to the one place Jaime Lannister would be?

Dude was always what he was.

 

[L K]

So I'm caught up on the season and now I'm struggling with a big question.  "Why".

This season just seems like a colossal trainwreck.  Some fun set pieces and a whole bunch of rushed nonsense.

HBO offered a blank cheque and as many episodes as they wanted and they rushed this into 6 episodes. 

I get the Mad Queen angle and there have definitely been times where her anger flashed out but we have gone from locking dragons up for burning a small child to 'murder everyone'.  She was clearly getting paranoid about Jon but I think it would have benefitted from a longer build rather than rushed through 2 episodes.

Arya just spent the last two seasons being essentially Bran levels of emotionless killer and the Hound says "don't be like me" and she immediately snaps out of it and leaves.

The scorpions went from pinpoint accuracy to incompetent. 

I don't think Jaime's arc was as horribly mangled as he did keep running back to Cersei over the series despite showing glimpses of being more.  But that fight with Euron and his ability to run around after that were comically dumb.