Game of Thrones (S8)

[herman]

So I'm caught up on the season and now I'm struggling with a big question.  "Why".

This season just seems like a colossal trainwreck.  Some fun set pieces and a whole bunch of rushed nonsense.

HBO offered a blank cheque and as many episodes as they wanted and they rushed this into 6 episodes. 

https://twitter.com/dsilvermint/status/1125856091261136896

This thread on pantsers and plotters really covers it, both the apparent ineptitude of the showrunners/writers, as well as GRRM's glacial progress with the books.

and then this follow up:
https://twitter.com/DSilvermint/status/1127649654919688192

which is the result of the issues created by D&D's self-imposed storytelling style seasons 6 through 8. No time = no nuance

 

[Bender]

Also Cleganebowl was beautifully shot and all but it also seemed hell'a forced. I wish they figured out a different way to make it happen. It made it seem like this was the ONLY thing either participant wanted in their lives... but if that's the case why didn't they just fight when they met at the dragon pit in season 7? At the very least it could have been done somehow around Sandor having to save Arya from the Mountain and then them fighting.

I laughed so hard at how insane it seemed to me that Cersei just walked by like nothing was happening and Sandor didn't just take a swipe at her.

 

[Bender]

Also Cleganebowl was beautifully shot and all but it also seemed hell'a forced. I wish they figured out a different way to make it happen. It made it seem like this was the ONLY thing either participant wanted in their lives... but if that's the case why didn't they just fight when they met at the dragon pit in season 7? At the very least it could have been done somehow around Sandor having to save Arya from the Mountain and then them fighting.

This i agree with. Whatever they were going with with turning the Mountain into Frankenstein's Monster didn't work for me all series and especially not last night.

I literally said out loud "What is this, Resident Evil?"

 

[Bender]

Right but just about everything that's happened since the battle of Winterfell has made Danerys think that if she takes the throne without being feared then people will eventually conspire against her in order to supplant her with Jon. A thought that, while maybe farfetched, is at least somewhat helped along by us getting to see Varys, one of her trusted advisors, do that exact thing.

Danerys thinking that her grip on the throne is tenuous absent all the murder may be wrong but as someone was saying last week about Danerys and her Dragons getting ambushed, Kings and Queens throughout history have made bad, self-defeating decisions on hundreds of occasions. Again, this is one of the inherent flaws of the dictatorial monarchy based on in-breeding.

Well I'd say having a giant dragon that showed it's capable of pretty much destroying an entire army and defensive strongholds of Kings Landing at the ready is something that would incite enough fear to keep the common folk loyal to you. She could have also later made a big public show about using Drogon to burn Cersei and other lords loyal to her like she did with the Tarly's.

Like I said I get that it's pretty clear the show was building to Dany going mad, particularly all this season, I just think they pulled the trigger in a really lazy and rushed way (something you could say about a lot of things in the show the past 2 or 3 seasons).

I don't really get why, if it were so easy to just torch Cersei's armies so easily, they didn't do it when they met with Cersei the first time. I mean Cersei was weaker then than now and her army got obliterated fairly easily, which makes me feel like everything subsequent was done in the name of convoluted plot.

 

[Bender]

Also is Euron now officially the most useless character is television history?

Yes. Yes he is.

Impressive about that part was the two 12 inch deep stabs Jaime took to the sides which had him on the brink of death, and then he's able to muster the courage and walk down a million stairs with his sis.

Very heroic.

We have to gloss over stuff that didn't make any sense, like Jamie not getting through that initial gate, yet somehow meanders his way all the way to Cersei through the hidden tunnels while the entire city is being destroyed.

I dunno, I have to agree that this season seems rushed, if they had a few more episodes showing the build up to Dany going off the deep end maybe it could have worked better.  The whole Bran story is another problem, most of the time he's chilling in his wheelchair seemingly listening to music in his own head while stuff is going on around him.  Was that him as the pale horse leading Arya back?  Who the hell knows?  Jamie was on the road to redemption, falls for Brienne and then in one episode decides he's no good and has to go and be by Cersei's side again...I mean lots of things didn't add up for me.

He literally showed up at random as a BS plot device to fill the void of another common enemy. So idiotic. I really thought Yara was going to finally get a chance to take on Euron as well but no. All these threads were basically meaningless, and maybe that's what they're trying to say because "story realism" where not everything gets resolved but I mean you don't put in starting threads and just let them dangle for no reason and then say not resolving them or resolving them badly is good storytelling.

I laughed so hard when I saw the steed. I'm like "Is this another Unicorn/Blade Runner deal and this symbolizes Arya's death?" And then I thought "No, this show's not smart enough for something like that anymore."

 

[Zee]

Also Cleganebowl was beautifully shot and all but it also seemed hell'a forced. I wish they figured out a different way to make it happen. It made it seem like this was the ONLY thing either participant wanted in their lives... but if that's the case why didn't they just fight when they met at the dragon pit in season 7? At the very least it could have been done somehow around Sandor having to save Arya from the Mountain and then them fighting.

I laughed so hard at how insane it seemed to me that Cersei just walked by like nothing was happening and Sandor didn't just take a swipe at her.

That was pretty funny to me too.  She sees Qyburn get his head bashed in and is like "ok then, I'll be leaving now" and just calmly walks by the Hound.  I don't begrudge Sandor letting her go cause he knew she was done anyway and he had no motivation for killing her, she was nothing to him.

 

[Kin]

I don't really get why, if it were so easy to just torch Cersei's armies so easily, they didn't do it when they met with Cersei the first time. I mean Cersei was weaker then than now and her army got obliterated fairly easily, which makes me feel like everything subsequent was done in the name of convoluted plot.

Well, the short answer there I think is it weren't so easy. Remember, the current narrative is that prior to last night Danerys' plans were to siege King's Landing rather than toast it because of the civilian losses that would occur even if the dragon was just focused on Cersei's forces. Remember all of the hand to hand fighting in the streets between Jon and Grey Worm's guys and the Lannister army? Couldn't do that with a dragon and not kill thousands of civilians.

But last night Danerys "went crazy"(or embraced the true character of her privileged class as per 100% correct late night Marxist critiques of fantasy nonsense) and was willing to kill innocent people in her destruction of the city. That's the whole shift that has people so upset.

 

[Bender]

I don't really get why, if it were so easy to just torch Cersei's armies so easily, they didn't do it when they met with Cersei the first time. I mean Cersei was weaker then than now and her army got obliterated fairly easily, which makes me feel like everything subsequent was done in the name of convoluted plot.

Well, the short answer there I think is it weren't so easy. Remember, the current narrative is that prior to last night Danerys' plans were to siege King's Landing rather than toast it because of the civilian losses that would occur even if the dragon was just focused on Cersei's forces. Remember all of the hand to hand fighting in the streets between Jon and Grey Worm's guys and the Lannister army? Couldn't do that with a dragon and not kill thousands of civilians.

But last night Danerys "went crazy"(or embraced the true character of her privileged class as per 100% correct late night Marxist critiques of fantasy nonsense) and was willing to kill innocent people in her destruction of the city. That's the whole shift that has people so upset.

What was done initially seemed in line with what people were expecting, which could've been done way back in episode 1 (or whatever it was). It was only once the battle was lost by Cersei did she really cross the line.

And this also goes back to when she ran into Euron initially. She has the best aerial view of anyone ever and gets ambushed by a giant fleet? And she couldn't toast them at the time? I mean, that truly did seem easy after making it seem like they were a competent fleet.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/vkcoleartist/status/1128044516542382081

 

[Bender]

https://twitter.com/vkcoleartist/status/1128044516542382081

I get that and I kind of don't. Too tired to try and explain but I guess I just never felt she was truly a benevolent ruler. Absolute power corrupts absolutely yadda yadda.

 

[Kin]

https://twitter.com/vkcoleartist/status/1128044516542382081

Yeah, I don't know if this is someone you know Herman so I don't want to insult but looking at that person's profile it's entirely possible that they "identify with" this particular TV character to an extent that their criticism of the show's decisions may be somewhat influenced more by personal affection than anything.

And, in trying to be diplomatic about it, it seems like there's a lot of criticism out there that is less about the show being true to its internal logic or a compelling narrative or whatever and more about people working their personal issues out through a goofy show about magic ridin' dragons:

https://uproxx.com/tv/game-of-thrones-dany-mad-queen/[url]

 

[herman]

I should have provided some context to that tweet share. I don't know who she is, but I thought it was an interesting perspective as it is so alien to me. Reading through it though, I could empathize, especially for someone in a situation that so rarely gets a positive lifeline to anchor to representation-wise.

My perspective is that D&D, like many other adapters, have to prioritize, and I generally don't like how they've prioritized the bulk of their effort on spectacle and rug pulling. Ned on Baelor's steps renouncing his honour, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, and even the assassination of Jon all felt earned and within character for all parties involved.

I think it's fair to say that Dany's been on the course to becoming the Big Bad at the end, as there are plenty of pointers in both the books and show. I think it's also fair to say the show spent 6-7 seasons cultivating her compassion, counter to her entitlement and drive for vengeance. Yes, Dany's been ruthless and drinks plenty of her own Kool-Aid, but the show did not lay enough track for this week's display of outright sadism which were clearly in the service of plot shock value (especially next week). Instead of deeper looks into Dany's pain and inner conflict between her compassion and her Throne aspirations*, they blew their budget and 40 minutes of run time on dragon disaster porn. I think it's fair for people to feel betrayed by that.

* Which Emilia Clarke delivered pretty convincingly in like 12 seconds while perched on a hydraulic saddle surrounded by green screens with zero dialogue.

 

[Kin]

A worthwhile read from the LA Review of Books that works along some of the same lines I did earlier in talking about our perspectives of "good" and "evil" as it relates to the show:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/#!

But a deeper problem is that we don?t want to admit that Daenerys is right, because we don?t want to admit what monarchy is. There are no good kings and queens, something Varys should have known (Jon Snow would be a good king, maybe, and his reign would be extremely short). Kings and queens are selfish people who will kill you when they need you to die; while Tyrion should have been reading Machiavelli, Hobbes, and Carl Schmitt, Daenerys was out learning, in the field, what exactly the throne is. She is open about it. She is honest. She had wanted everyone to love her, and tried to make it happen. But as the people who loved her kept dying?and as her ?allies? turned against her and her enemies grew stronger?she correctly identified the failure of this strategy, and changed tactics. Just like she attacked the ships from the sun?ambushing them instead of letting them ambush her?she has abandoned a failing tactic, based on her knowledge of the field of play, and adopted a winning one.

 

[Kin]

I think it's fair to say that Dany's been on the course to becoming the Big Bad at the end, as there are plenty of pointers in both the books and show. I think it's also fair to say the show spent 6-7 seasons cultivating her compassion, counter to her entitlement and drive for vengeance. Yes, Dany's been ruthless and drinks plenty of her own Kool-Aid, but the show did not lay enough track for this week's display of outright sadism which were clearly in the service of plot shock value (especially next week). Instead of deeper looks into Dany's pain and inner conflict between her compassion and her Throne aspirations*, they blew their budget and 40 minutes of run time on dragon disaster porn. I think it's fair for people to feel betrayed by that.

See, but this is why I think it's important to avoid such personal investment in the show to the extent that you can feel "betrayed". In looking at what Danerys did and trying to decide if the showrunners had given us enough "runway" or warning or time to validate it as a genuine result of some sort of mental illness we're really getting into choppy waters that seem designed for people to try to frame it within their own personal experiences which, I don't know, seems like an unhealthy way to engage with a show.

In the article I link to above apparently Benioff and Weiss try to explain the "lack of track" by saying that this wasn't a badly calculated decision by a diseased mind but rather a sudden fracture. A breakdown, if you will. This explanation, while maybe not satisfying, makes plenty of sense. She's had a lot of tragedy piled on these last few weeks and the whole notion of a breakdown is that you don't necessarily see it coming. Especially not in someone who is incentivized as a leader to project a strong outer facade. That said, between this and last weeks episodes we've seen plenty of evidence that she's clearly feeling the emotional weight of all of the deaths and betrayals she's experienced. The idea that it may not be "enough" seems weird to me as I'm not sure what would satisfy the concept of sufficiently establishing a sudden breakdown brought on by trauma beyond showing us the traumas and her reactions. The show did that. They didn't give us hours and hours of wallowing in grief but I really don't think that would have been any better.

People might feel as though a breakdown isn't a particularly satisfying turn for the character but that's a very different thing than saying it bends logic or violates what we've established about a character. If you know anyone who's had a breakdown, and I do, the whole idea is that they do things that are out of character. Sometimes it's hurting themselves, sometimes it's other people but, thankfully, in our world the people who experience those things don't have giant fire-breathing dragons.

 

[herman]

A worthwhile read from the LA Review of Books that works along some of the same lines I did earlier in talking about our perspectives of "good" and "evil" as it relates to the show:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/#!

But a deeper problem is that we don?t want to admit that Daenerys is right, because we don?t want to admit what monarchy is. There are no good kings and queens, something Varys should have known (Jon Snow would be a good king, maybe, and his reign would be extremely short). Kings and queens are selfish people who will kill you when they need you to die; while Tyrion should have been reading Machiavelli, Hobbes, and Carl Schmitt, Daenerys was out learning, in the field, what exactly the throne is. She is open about it. She is honest. She had wanted everyone to love her, and tried to make it happen. But as the people who loved her kept dying?and as her ?allies? turned against her and her enemies grew stronger?she correctly identified the failure of this strategy, and changed tactics. Just like she attacked the ships from the sun?ambushing them instead of letting them ambush her?she has abandoned a failing tactic, based on her knowledge of the field of play, and adopted a winning one.

This is a fun read. I did really enjoy the dragon tactics.

This part made me laugh:

I?m going to proceed as if all the things that Benioff and Weiss say in the post-episode featurette are stupid and wrong, however.

They're the credited writers on this episode, so I'm not sure how they could have written such wrong motivations, but still got Daenerys' war logic correct.

 

[herman]

See, but this is why I think it's important to avoid such personal investment in the show to the extent that you can feel "betrayed".

I'm with you on this, but I can't control how other people ingest their art. I'm a bit sad for the people that named their kids Daenerys/Khaleesi.

In looking at what Danerys did and trying to decide if the showrunners had given us enough "runway" or warning or time to validate it as a genuine result of some sort of mental illness we're really getting into choppy waters that seem designed for people to try to frame it within their own personal experiences which, I don't know, seems like an unhealthy way to engage with a show.

In the article I link to above apparently Benioff and Weiss try to explain the "lack of track" by saying that this wasn't a badly calculated decision by a diseased mind but rather a sudden fracture. A breakdown, if you will. This explanation, while maybe not satisfying, makes plenty of sense. She's had a lot of tragedy piled on these last few weeks and the whole notion of a breakdown is that you don't necessarily see it coming. Especially not in someone who is incentivized as a leader to project a strong outer facade. That said, between this and last weeks episodes we've seen plenty of evidence that she's clearly feeling the emotional weight of all of the deaths and betrayals she's experienced. The idea that it may not be "enough" seems weird to me as I'm not sure what would satisfy the concept of sufficiently establishing a sudden breakdown brought on by trauma beyond showing us the traumas and her reactions. The show did that. They didn't give us hours and hours of wallowing in grief but I really don't think that would have been any better.

People might feel as though a breakdown isn't a particularly satisfying turn for the character but that's a very different thing than saying it bends logic or violates what we've established about a character. If you know anyone who's had a breakdown, and I do, the whole idea is that they do things that are out of character. Sometimes it's hurting themselves, sometimes it's other people but, thankfully, in our world the people who experience those things don't have giant fire-breathing dragons.

That's good perspective (re: breakdowns); the show elected to only show the effect on the ground. There was basically zero Dany after the bells tolled and Drogon started to meander through the city.

 

[groundskeeper willie]

One thing I'll add that may be minor to some but I haven't seen mentioned yet is the comment near the beginning of the episode the Daenerys hadn't eaten for several days. As somebody who has had to endure this I'll say it absolutely messes with your head and causes you to make poorly thought out decisions. There's a reason why so many cultures' spiritual journeys or prophetic visions include fasting for lengthy periods of time.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

One thing I'll add that may be minor to some but I haven't seen mentioned yet is the comment near the beginning of the episode the Daenerys hadn't eaten for several days. As somebody who has had to endure this I'll say it absolutely messes with your head and causes you to make poorly thought out decisions. There's a reason why so many cultures' spiritual journeys or prophetic visions include fasting for lengthy periods of time.

She should have had a Snickers.

 

[lamajama]

While the ep was visually impressive I do wish the writers at least attempted to use some logic in some of the
scenes such as what appears to be stone blocks exploding and burning. If they showed 2-3 seconds of wood
buildings that would have helped - or perhaps I missed it....and simply attacking the fleet from behind the arrows
was an obvious tactic...

But I'm nitpicking....asking for logic  as I watch a woman (simply gripping some horns) while flying all around
on a dragon breathing fire exploding stone build monuments.......

I am really enjoying the season but as most have said, it's way too compacted and they really had a wealth of plots
to work through if they had wanted to.

I will be away for the final ep that will see Jon and Danny settle it with a fight to the death and as such will have to avoid all media
for 2 days until I can watch it.

 

[Kin]

While the ep was visually impressive I do wish the writers at least attempted to use some logic in some of the
scenes such as what appears to be stone blocks exploding and burning.

Well, we're getting pretty far afield here but I think it's at least consistent with the universe they're operating in that dragons breathing fire has some element of concussive force as opposed to just being like a flame thrower. We see this when the ships get torn to pieces as opposed to just catching fire.