General Leafs Talk v2.0
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RedLeaf said:
If Liles was tradeable he'd have been traded by now. And if anybody was looking for a 4-5-6 defenceman they wouldn't give up assets for the guy with a $3,875,000 cap hit for the next three years, they'd just dip into the free agent market and sign Hainsey/Gilbert/Whitney/White/Colaiacovo. All of whom are just about as good if not better than Liles and wouldn't require assets or a big contract to acquire.
bustaheims
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CarltonTheBear said:
That's really some pretty flawed logic. Until Franson is signed, the Leafs need Liles on the roster. So, regardless of how tradeable Liles may or may not be, the reason he hasn't been traded yet is that there's been no pressing need to make that move.
bustaheims said:
Wouldn't needing cap space to sign Franson (and Kadri) be a pretty big pressing need to move Liles? I mean, I get that we already covered that the Leafs can sign them both and go over the cap, but that's never a very smart move when you don't have an immediate solution to getting under.
As for needing Liles:
Phaneuf
Gunnarsson
Gardiner
Holzer
Fraser
Ranger
Brennan
Blacker
Rielly
Might not be a perfect defence, but I don't really think that Liles changes that. Phaneuf and Gunnarsson have the top-pairing. Gardiner plays on the second pairing with Holzer until Franson gets signed. And any one of the other 5 players (4 if/when Rielly is returned to junior) can adequately play on the 3rd pairing while leaving enough depth in the pressbox and on the Marlies for injuries.
But I go back to the second point of my post. Even if a team needed a player like Liles, why would they trade for his pretty bad contract when they just can just to the bargain bin section of the free agent market for a similar player?
I'm sure Nonis knows if there is market for Liles. There's a chance he has a couple teams interested maybe more depending on how much salary the Leafs retain and he can deal him when they sign Franson.
NHL GMs operate with the benefit of much more information than we have access to.
NHL GMs operate with the benefit of much more information than we have access to.
bustaheims
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
Until there's an actual need for that cap space, no - and what that really means is, until the Leafs are actually close to getting Franson under contract, there's no need to create any cap space because, well, it's not needed. The focus on whether Liles moves is entirely on Franson, since, without Franson signed, they can get Kadri under contract and they still have a need to Liles, and, if they get Franson signed, they'll then need to create cap space for Kadri and Liles' spot in the lineup becomes more tenuous.
CarltonTheBear said:
That's far from not being a perfect defence - it's a pretty poor one if you play Holzer on the 2nd pairing. As for the rest, I'd take Liles over all of them except maybe Rielly who will likely be going back to junior. I'd take Liles over Holzer 10 times out of 10, as well. With Franson unsigned and Liles not on the roster, that means dressing 3 borderline NHLers or inexperienced prospects on the blueline every night. I mean, really, if we're being honest, that's what guys like Fraser, Holzer and Ranger have to be considered right now - especially Holzer and Ranger (though, I have high hopes for Ranger, he hasn't played in the NHL in a long time and he's really an unknown quantity at the NHL level right now).
CarltonTheBear said:
You call it the bargain bin, but is it really? How do we really know what these guys are willing to sign for, where they're willing to sign, or, in the case of Whitney and Colaiacovo, if they're even healthy enough to be ready for the start of the NHL season (and I don't believe either of them are)? Liles' contract isn't actually that bad if he's put in a situation where he can actually get 2nd pairing minutes with PP time. He's a proven point producer and is responsible in his own end. He's better than all of these so-call "bargain bin" UFAs that are still out there, and are still out there for a reason.
Kin
New member
CarltonTheBear said:
I think that kind of relies on every team looking at Liles and the year he had last year and thinking that's basically the limit of what he can be as a player. Now, I bet there are some teams who will look at his bad year and shy away but I'm pretty confident that if Liles were a free-agent he'd have been close to the top, if not at the very top, of the list of available offensive defensemen. Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting but I don't look at who's available on the UFA market and see anyone in their early thirties who averages 41 points per 82 games.
If I'm a team out there who's interested in a defenseman to primarily chip in on the PP but who won't embarrass you defensively....there's not a better option. Even if Gilbert or Colaiacovo or Whitney were healthy none of them score at that rate.
Going over the Cap, even though allowed, kills a lot of leverage you HOPE to have when making a trade. Nonis has to have a trade pre-done and even then teams are not stupid. They would know Nonis has his cujones in a bind.
This is very poor Cap management and I wonder how much pressure he got from the top to "make a splash" this year. It just seems so unlike the methodical Nonis. Kadri has to be kept. Franson appears to be a player who will do well in a Carlyle system so he needs to be kept. Phil needs to be kept and Dion will be kept. The other problem is we have a multitude of 5-6-7 D men and kids.
Will be interesting to see this one resolve. It's going to cost us.
This is very poor Cap management and I wonder how much pressure he got from the top to "make a splash" this year. It just seems so unlike the methodical Nonis. Kadri has to be kept. Franson appears to be a player who will do well in a Carlyle system so he needs to be kept. Phil needs to be kept and Dion will be kept. The other problem is we have a multitude of 5-6-7 D men and kids.
Will be interesting to see this one resolve. It's going to cost us.
Kin
New member
lamajama said:
But if the player the Leafs are trying to trade is one that teams, note the plural, actually want they're going to pursue him regardless of a cap crunch. Look at the deals Boston and Chicago have made in cap crunches. They got good value because they were trading things people wanted.
Very true but if that's the case here, is it actually Liles that these other teams may want? I'm thinking that IF Liles has a market he'd either be gone by know or teams know what the Leafs are up against. If its not Liles then Nonis may be trying to avoid having to move a good player off the team so he has the dough to sign Naz and Franson.
bustaheims
Active member
lamajama said:
As I covered before, the Leafs won't move Liles until they're close to signing Franson, because, until that point, they really need him to take Franson's spot on the blue line. The team doesn't need to free up the cap space until they need to fit both Franson and Kadri under the cap, and, as of right now, that doesn't appear to be a pressing concern. Liles not being moved is a less of a statement on the market for him and more of a statement on the state of negotiations with Franson.
hockeyfan1
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nutman said:
Liles top four? Very probable, but, as has been said, if Franson signs, then wouldn't that make Liles expendable?
L
losveratos
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hockeyfan1 said:
Or one of Rielly/Gardiner. But obviously you should trade age before beauty if you can.
I'm just not sure we can move him for anything we'd want.
You could also flip it and say one of those same two youngins could make Franson expendable.
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