Goaltending conundrum

[Bender]

Good Lord I don't know what Burke will do (if anything).  Do we "promote from within" as in Scrivens, Rynnas or Owuya at camp next season and hope one of them takes the reigns?  Do the Leafs package their top 10 draft pick + a roster player for a proven goalie at the draft?  (Shades of JFJ). 

My stomach hurts.

I don't know what he will do but I don't think he will make the same mistake twice and go with 2 totally unproven goaltenders. This means Gus is gone.

At this point I wouldn't care too much if it was Reimer that was gone, Jonas did his job this year.

Gone in what sense? I think Reimer deserves another look. We've given up too hastily on prospects in the past, and if he turns out to be Steve Mason, then fine, but I don't think we'll figure that out unless we look at what he can bring a year after the infamous sophomore slump.

 

[Bender]

Just thinking out loud here:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get a proven goaltender, but at some point aren't all goaltenders unproven in the NHL to some extent? I mean, AFAIK most goaltenders don't step into the league and tear it up right away. So when are we going to develop a proven goaltender instead of relying on either trading our assets or bringing in a UFA that will eat at our cap space? We seem to have many goaltending prospects for that reason, and IIRC people wanted Ben Bishop as well... so...

What's the plan then? Go out and get a Biron type, or trade for a "proven" #1 goaltender?

 

[moon111]

On a good defensive team, I'd take Reimer.  On a run and gun, needing desperation goaltending, I'd go with Gus.

 

[Tigger]

Good Lord I don't know what Burke will do (if anything).  Do we "promote from within" as in Scrivens, Rynnas or Owuya at camp next season and hope one of them takes the reigns?  Do the Leafs package their top 10 draft pick + a roster player for a proven goalie at the draft?  (Shades of JFJ). 

My stomach hurts.

I don't know what he will do but I don't think he will make the same mistake twice and go with 2 totally unproven goaltenders. This means Gus is gone.

At this point I wouldn't care too much if it was Reimer that was gone, Jonas did his job this year.

Gone in what sense? I think Reimer deserves another look. We've given up too hastily on prospects in the past, and if he turns out to be Steve Mason, then fine, but I don't think we'll figure that out unless we look at what he can bring a year after the infamous sophomore slump.

In the sense that a goalie needs to move to bring in a true starting goaltender at the moment. To honest, if I thought the Leafs were really behind a build movement I'd seriously consider sticking with both of them next year, but I don't believe they are and I think they'll find a 'stopgap' type goalie until one of them busts out or in as a starter or a legit starter becomes available, maybe some combination.

 

[cw]

Good Lord I don't know what Burke will do (if anything).  Do we "promote from within" as in Scrivens, Rynnas or Owuya at camp next season and hope one of them takes the reigns?  Do the Leafs package their top 10 draft pick + a roster player for a proven goalie at the draft?  (Shades of JFJ). 

My stomach hurts.

I don't know what he will do but I don't think he will make the same mistake twice and go with 2 totally unproven goaltenders. This means Gus is gone.

At this point I wouldn't care too much if it was Reimer that was gone, Jonas did his job this year.

Gone in what sense? I think Reimer deserves another look. We've given up too hastily on prospects in the past, and if he turns out to be Steve Mason, then fine, but I don't think we'll figure that out unless we look at what he can bring a year after the infamous sophomore slump.

In the sense that a goalie needs to move to bring in a true starting goaltender at the moment. To honest, if I thought the Leafs were really behind a build movement I'd seriously consider sticking with both of them next year, but I don't believe they are and I think they'll find a 'stopgap' type goalie until one of them busts out or in as a starter or a legit starter becomes available, maybe some combination.

I think Burke's retooling has got him into that sort of a jam - he's probably got to get a vet because without it, they're in jeopardy of missing the playoffs next year.

At 23, Reimer is still quite young for a goalie. I think Gus has been a little better than James this year but my guess is that Gus will be the odd man out while James gets a chance to bounce back from a sophomore slump.

Burke's probably still got a dose of Cloutier-itis so his wick is going to be shorter under the circumstances. I still like the fact that Allaire is around to help provide some input.

There are number of UFAs that might work out:
http://www.capgeek.com/free_agents.php?year_id=2012&team_id=-1&position_id=G&fa_type_id=2
though none of them provide a guarantee they'll be any better than Giguere was. None of them look like they'll cost a fortune to try either.

 

[Tigger]

None of them look like they'll cost a fortune to try either.

It's the 'jam' part that leaves this sort of unfulfilled for me, none of those guys past Vokoun means a whole lot, weak tea for the most part, including him.

I wish the Leafs were behind a real rebuild, nothing wrong with either goalie in terms of their stage of development.

It's a bit of defining moment to me.

 

[cw]

None of them look like they'll cost a fortune to try either.

It's the 'jam' part that leaves this sort of unfulfilled for me, none of those guys past Vokoun means a whole lot, weak tea for the most part, including him.

I wish the Leafs were behind a real rebuild, nothing wrong with either goalie in terms of their stage of development.

It's a bit of defining moment to me.

When Burke went for the retooling, the die was cast. I wanted a rebuild then and I'd have been delighted if they'd made half a stab at it at the deadline with a bit of a roster roll over. It was clear that even if they scraped into the playoffs, the team was too weak to accomplish much. Might as well stock up for when they're in position to accomplish something because the farm system has to be strong enough to carry them the rest of the way to a Cup once they start making noise in the playoffs.

In spite of how Kessel is doing this year, I would have been pretty happy with Seguin and the route that represented.

 

[Tigger]

None of them look like they'll cost a fortune to try either.

It's the 'jam' part that leaves this sort of unfulfilled for me, none of those guys past Vokoun means a whole lot, weak tea for the most part, including him.

I wish the Leafs were behind a real rebuild, nothing wrong with either goalie in terms of their stage of development.

It's a bit of defining moment to me.

When Burke went for the retooling, the die was cast. I wanted a rebuild then and I'd have been delighted if they'd made half a stab at it at the deadline with a bit of a roster roll over. It was clear that even if they scraped into the playoffs, the team was too weak to accomplish much. Might as well stock up for when they're in position to accomplish something because the farm system has to be strong enough to carry them the rest of the way to a Cup once they start making noise in the playoffs.

In spite of how Kessel is doing this year, I would have been pretty happy with Seguin and the route that represented.

Best I can say is that part of the idea never materialized, there was even some hope that it could have been.... Bet on the wrong horse ( Toskala ) as they say, paying a price now.

However,

Now would be the time to admit that and commit, otherwise better have some serious 'moves' there, Burkowski, and a full tank of fuel... ( secretly, yes, I hope he does ).

 

[dappleganger]

It's kinda sad that after nearly a full season with Gus and Reims as our goalies we really dont know what we have.

 

[Bender]

None of them look like they'll cost a fortune to try either.

It's the 'jam' part that leaves this sort of unfulfilled for me, none of those guys past Vokoun means a whole lot, weak tea for the most part, including him.

I wish the Leafs were behind a real rebuild, nothing wrong with either goalie in terms of their stage of development.

It's a bit of defining moment to me.

How about Sanford? Surprised he has as good a SV% as he does. Al Montoya might be worth taking a stab at.

 

[Bonsixx]

It's kinda sad that after nearly a full season with Gus and Reims as our goalies we really dont know what we have.

I think we do ... mediocrity.

 

[Bender]

It's kinda sad that after nearly a full season with Gus and Reims as our goalies we really dont know what we have.

I think we do ... mediocrity.

:

Yeah, because goalies should be fully developed in one season. Especially ones that are 23

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=45065

The Sabres should've given up on Ryan Miller.

 

[Tigger]

How about Sanford? Surprised he has as good a SV% as he does. Al Montoya might be worth taking a stab at.

Curtis has been a bit banged up this year and never really had the ability to be a starter, pretty much back up numbers from him ( trying not to be biased here either... )

Montoya, oddly, only has 48 games in the NHL under his belt. I'd have to watch him play.

From that free agent list that cw linked to, as far as obvious starters go, there's Vokoun and Nabokov. It's not ideal but signing one of them ( Vokoun would be my preference of the two but whatever ) short term could work. It's risky no matter what, trading for a goalie even more so.

 

[drummond]

Funny thing is that with another SO against the Flyers Gus and James earned already 7 SO victories so far this year. I mean this is damn impressive result which has not been acomplished since Eddie Belfour in 2003/04 season with his 10 SO victories and his jawdropping 2.13 GAA.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Funny thing is that with another SO against the Flyers Gus and James earned already 7 SO victories so far this year. I mean this is damn impressive result which has not been acomplished since Eddie Belfour in 2003/04 season with his 10 SO victories and his jawdropping 2.13 GAA.

Gus is also in a tie for 10th in shutouts.  Oddly enough he has as many SO's as Thomas, Kiprusoff, Rinne and Price.

 

[Strangelove]

The idea that goaltending is the biggest hole on the team is a gigantic red herring I think.  It's the team's defense that has been atrocious this year--these guys have been more prone to poor coverage, bad positioning, terrible decisionmaking, poor passing, etc., than any team I can remember, and the goaltenders' stats/confidence has really suffered as a result.  Early on their feisty offense helped disguise their defensive ineptitude but these things even out over time.

[Edit: Witness the number of shutouts this year.  When the team's defenders actually show up for a game, or for a stretch of games as occurred with Gus in January, our goalies are fine and dandy.]

Truth is, Burke amassed an overpaid, soft, sloppy bunch of defenders and forwards, and he compounded his mistake by sticking with a coach long after he had quite clearly lost the dressing room.  This team has zero identity, and Burke deserves the lion's share of the blame for that.

 

[drummond]

The idea that goaltending is the biggest hole on the team is a gigantic red herring I think.  It's the team's defense that has been atrocious this year--these guys have been more prone to poor coverage, bad positioning, terrible decisionmaking, poor passing, etc., than any team I can remember, and the goaltenders' stats/confidence has really suffered as a result.  Early on their feisty offense helped disguise their defensive ineptitude but these things even out over time.

[Edit: Witness the number of shutouts this year.  When the team's defenders actually show up for a game, or for a stretch of games as occurred with Gus in January, our goalies are fine and dandy.]

Truth is, Burke amassed an overpaid, soft, sloppy bunch of defenders and forwards, and he compounded his mistake by sticking with a coach long after he had quite clearly lost the dressing room.  This team has zero identity, and Burke deserves the lion's share of the blame for that.

Well said and I completely agree. The goalies the Leafs have are not Vizina Trophy candidates but they are not the worst or second worst in the league either.

 

[princedpw]

Funny thing is that with another SO against the Flyers Gus and James earned already 7 SO victories so far this year. I mean this is damn impressive result which has not been acomplished since Eddie Belfour in 2003/04 season with his 10 SO victories and his jawdropping 2.13 GAA.

Gus is also in a tie for 10th in shutouts.  Oddly enough he has as many SO's as Thomas, Kiprusoff, Rinne and Price.

Counting low-probability/low-occurrence events is not a good way to measure a player -- the lower the probability the event, the more likely luck will have a major effect and skew our understanding of a player's talent.  So:

-- number of shutouts
-- number of game-winning goals
-- number of overtime goals
-- number of hat tricks
-- number of career 8-point games

are all far less valuable than

-- save percentage
-- number of goals or goals per game
-- number of points or points per game

 

[ZBBM]

So, what do they do with Gustavsson?  Make a bid to sign him again?  If so, then what with Reimer?  Because there's no way BB can go into next season with those 2 as the goalies.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Funny thing is that with another SO against the Flyers Gus and James earned already 7 SO victories so far this year. I mean this is damn impressive result which has not been acomplished since Eddie Belfour in 2003/04 season with his 10 SO victories and his jawdropping 2.13 GAA.

Gus is also in a tie for 10th in shutouts.  Oddly enough he has as many SO's as Thomas, Kiprusoff, Rinne and Price.

Counting low-probability/low-occurrence events is not a good way to measure a player -- the lower the probability the event, the more likely luck will have a major effect and skew our understanding of a player's talent.  So:

-- number of shutouts
-- number of game-winning goals
-- number of overtime goals
-- number of hat tricks
-- number of career 8-point games

are all far less valuable than

-- save percentage
-- number of goals or goals per game
-- number of points or points per game

I was really only saying it is weird that he has as many shutouts as those goalies, who I would expect to have more.  Hence why I didn't go any further with it.