Goaltending Showdown - Reimer vs. Bernier

[Palmateer29]

I don't understand the point of keeping Reimer if he's not going to play. IMO both goalies have been very good on a terrible defensive team (the edge to Bernier perhaps) but to keep with Bernier after a 5 goal drubbing (not unlike Reimer's last start) doesn't make much sense to me.

At this point (with Bernier looking like he'll start his 6th in a row) I'd imagine Reimer's value to the team is larger returning a productive, responsible defensive forward or good 3-4 D-man than playing every 6th game or in back-to-back situations.

This team has too many holes to keep a productive piece on the bench most nights. Just my opinion of course.

I agree with this.  I've been having a gut feeling that Reimer will be traded before the Olympic break.  I think using him as a piece to improve a roster close to slipping out of a playoff spot is more important than holding onto him for insurance purposes.  This goalie system has just about run its course and now would be a good time to capitalize on the one area of strength.

I think if Randy is sticking around then Gardiner, Reimer and Kadri will all be gone at the deadline or over the summer.

 

[bustaheims]

I think if Randy is sticking around then Gardiner, Reimer and Kadri will all be gone at the deadline or over the summer.

My hope is that, by the Olympic break, the management team will have made the decision to move on from Carlyle before next season - even if they're unwilling to make that move in season.

 

[Palmateer29]

I think if Randy is sticking around then Gardiner, Reimer and Kadri will all be gone at the deadline or over the summer.

My hope is that, by the Olympic break, the management team will have made the decision to move on from Carlyle before next season - even if they're unwilling to make that move in season.

I completely agree with you. It sort of comes down to a number of young players or Randy....hopefully they stick with the players and bring in someone else that will be "their guy" instead of Burke's.

 

[Redleaf]

I think if Randy is sticking around then Gardiner, Reimer and Kadri will all be gone at the deadline or over the summer.

My hope is that, by the Olympic break, the management team will have made the decision to move on from Carlyle before next season - even if they're unwilling to make that move in season.

I have a few questions for this proposal....

1) is there proof that switching coaches every few years helps or hinders a hockey club's development? (My gut response would be that it doesn't help)
2) does making a coaching change mid season work more often than not?
3) who would do a more effective job coaching this young team?
4) are those/that individual currently available?

 

[bustaheims]

I have a few questions for this proposal....

1) is there proof that switching coaches every few years actually help or hinder a hockey club's development? (My gut response would be that it doesn't help)

I doubt there's much evidence to really support either side here, but, finding the right coach can certainly help a team's development, regardless of how many coaches they go through until they get to that point. Based on the team's lacklustre play, I strongly believe that coach is not Carlyle. Holding on to the wrong coach out the belief that changing coaches hinders development is probably even worse for development than changing coaches could be.

2) does making a coaching change mid season work more often than not?

I've read in a number of places that it generally takes 15-20 games for a team to fully adjust to a new coach and their system, so, if the move is made early enough, yes, a mid-season coaching change can work. I think the Leafs are beyond that point in terms of this season (and certainly will be by the Olympic break). At this point, a mid-season firing would be more about starting the hiring process earlier and getting to potential candidates before other teams that will fire their coaches (and there will be other teams that do - there are every year) get to those candidates.

3) who would do a more effective job coaching this young team?

One name that's been thrown around here is Peter Laviolette. He's currently available and could be a very good fit with the type of talent the Leafs have on the roster. Other than him, Brent Sutter could be a good choice, even with his disappointing showing at the WJHC. There are also likely a number of guys in the AHL or as assistants elsewhere that could make excellent candidates.

4) are those/that individual currently available?

Some are, some aren't. More will be available in the summer, obviously, but, there are definitely potential candidates out there right now.

 

[Redleaf]

I have a few questions for this proposal....

1) is there proof that switching coaches every few years actually help or hinder a hockey club's development? (My gut response would be that it doesn't help)

I doubt there's much evidence to really support either side here, but, finding the right coach can certainly help a team's development, regardless of how many coaches they go through until they get to that point. Based on the team's lacklustre play, I strongly believe that coach is not Carlyle. Holding on to the wrong coach out the belief that changing coaches hinders development is probably even worse for development than changing coaches could be.

2) does making a coaching change mid season work more often than not?

I've read in a number of places that it generally takes 15-20 games for a team to fully adjust to a new coach and their system, so, if the move is made early enough, yes, a mid-season coaching change can work. I think the Leafs are beyond that point in terms of this season (and certainly will be by the Olympic break). At this point, a mid-season firing would be more about starting the hiring process earlier and getting to potential candidates before other teams that will fire their coaches (and there will be other teams that do - there are every year) get to those candidates.

3) who would do a more effective job coaching this young team?

One name that's been thrown around here is Peter Laviolette. He's currently available and could be a very good fit with the type of talent the Leafs have on the roster. Other than him, Brent Sutter could be a good choice, even with his disappointing showing at the WJHC. There are also likely a number of guys in the AHL or as assistants elsewhere that could make excellent candidates.

4) are those/that individual currently available?

Some are, some aren't. More will be available in the summer, obviously, but, there are definitely potential candidates out there right now.

Interesting responses. I think, at the very least, Carlyle should be given the chance to get this team back into the playoffs again this year. Barring that, all bets are off.

 

[bustaheims]

Interesting responses. I think, at the very least, Carlyle should be given the chance to get this team back into the playoffs again this year. Barring that, all bets are off.

Well, by the Olympic break, we'll have a good idea about how likely that is. The team only has 22 games after the break. Where they're at after 60 games will be a pretty good indication of where they'll be when the season ends.

 

[Arn]

Reimer and Lupul for Tavares.

Easy.

I'd give up Reimer, Lupul, Kadri and maybe a high pick for Tavares. But you know that the Islanders would never trade him, if he leaves NYI, it'll be him walking.

Yeah that's why it was tongue in cheek. To be honest that's the only kind of trade I'd like to see. One where we get an absolute bona fide number 1 player back (as good as Kessel is) rather than losing some of these decent young players before seeing if another coach could utilise or harness the potential skill sets

 

[Redleaf]

Reimer and Lupul for Tavares.

Easy.

I'd give up Reimer, Lupul, Kadri and maybe a high pick for Tavares. But you know that the Islanders would never trade him, if he leaves NYI, it'll be him walking.

Yeah that's why it was tongue in cheek. To be honest that's the only kind of trade I'd like to see. One where we get an absolute bona fide number 1 player back (as good as Kessel is) rather than losing some of these decent young players before seeing if another coach could utilise or harness the potential skill sets

I'm pretty sure Nonis would love for a player like that to land in his lap and to make that, four quarters for a dollar, type trade. My guess is that it just doesn't come across a GMs desk very often.

 

[L K]

Reimer and Lupul for Tavares.

Easy.

I'd give up Reimer, Lupul, Kadri and maybe a high pick for Tavares. But you know that the Islanders would never trade him, if he leaves NYI, it'll be him walking.

Yeah that's why it was tongue in cheek. To be honest that's the only kind of trade I'd like to see. One where we get an absolute bona fide number 1 player back (as good as Kessel is) rather than losing some of these decent young players before seeing if another coach could utilise or harness the potential skill sets

I'm pretty sure Nonis would love for a player like that to land in his lap and to make that, four quarters for a dollar, type trade. My guess is that it just doesn't come across a GMs desk very often.

For a #1 center...no.  You either acquire a flawed player or you have to trade for them before they develop or after they have peaked through their prime.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Yeah that's why it was tongue in cheek. To be honest that's the only kind of trade I'd like to see. One where we get an absolute bona fide number 1 player back (as good as Kessel is) rather than losing some of these decent young players before seeing if another coach could utilise or harness the potential skill sets

Yeah, I knew you weren't serious, I was just adding a bit to how much I would love to pick up Tavares and that I would pay almost anything to get him.

I do however think that the Leafs could use some smaller trades to acquire some tough check-finishing players for the third and fourth lines. Orr, McLaren and a few of the better players aren't cutting it as far as completing heavy checks to wear down the opposition. The loss of Komarov is so visible it's scary.

Remember Chad Kilgor? Dude finished every single check ever! Those kind of players is what the Leafs are lacking IMO.

 

[freer]

Reimer better start the next game. Bernier has not proven anything in my opinion, and was the reason they lost last night.

 

[Peter D.]

Reimer better start the next game. Bernier has not proven anything in my opinion, and was the reason they lost last night.

Carlyle can hide behind the fact the team has a back-to-back, so Reimer will get one.  The interesting thing will be if Reimer wins his game and Bernier looks okay in his, who starts on Sunday.  The rope given to Bernier is greater than that given to Reimer, which is completely fine as I have no problem with Carlyle picking a guy and running with him to try and get him into a groove.  It just shouldn't be stated by Carlyle or any of the other management that Reimer has been given a fair opportunity to run with things. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

This is pretty neat from Stephen Burtch (46 GP is # of games Bernier has played since start of last season):

 

[goaliedave]

I have rarely, if ever,  seen Reimer have back to back bad games.He seems to have the greater ability to bounce back.

 

[Redleaf]

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"

This looked like it was all but over until Bernier had a few bad games in a row, which was bound to happen sooner or later, I guess.

Let's hope Reimer can redeem himself and climb back into this goaltending battle with a win tonight against the Hurricane!!

 

[Capital Leaf]

Reimer is the the better goalie!

Nothing against Bernier but I never understood why Nonis felt the need to pick him up in the first place.
Reimer brought the Leafs to the Playoff for the first time since 2004 and helped take Boston (the Eastern Conference Champs) to game 7 OT.

 

[bustaheims]

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie on TSN Radio "I think the Leafs are going to continue this goaltending situation past this season"

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "as much as there was this anticipation that Bernier was going to be really good. I don't think he's a 65 game + stud"

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "Bernier is a young goalie just learning to play a lot and carry the mail."

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "Bernier may not ever get to that stage."

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "just play flip flop with these two guys and ride the hot goalie"

I think they might stick with both goalies through into next season, as well. Even if they don't, I don't think they move a goalie before the draft.

 

[AvroArrow]

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie on TSN Radio "I think the Leafs are going to continue this goaltending situation past this season"

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "as much as there was this anticipation that Bernier was going to be really good. I don't think he's a 65 game + stud"

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "Bernier is a young goalie just learning to play a lot and carry the mail."

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "Bernier may not ever get to that stage."

Hope_Smoke: McKenzie "just play flip flop with these two guys and ride the hot goalie"

I think they might stick with both goalies through into next season, as well. Even if they don't, I don't think they move a goalie before the draft.

While Reimer is still an RFA, he might not be so easy to sign this offseason.  I get the sense he's quite displeased with how things have gone and, honestly, I don't blame him.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

While Reimer is still an RFA, he might not be so easy to sign this offseason.  I get the sense he's quite displeased with how things have gone and, honestly, I don't blame him.

He still has to perform to get the money, which to this point, I don't think he gets more than Bernier. Maybe he gets the same contract, but he'd have to go on quite a run, starting tonight, to justify getting a contract better than Bernier IMO.