Horachek's impact on the team

[Bullfrog]

Maybe I'm old school and going to sound like Don Cherry.

These guys are supposed to be a team. If someone went after one of my teammates on or off the ice, the code is or was: you stand up for that teammate. We always did that without thinking. Automatically. Instantly. It's just the way it was and how we were raised in team sports. You did it, period ... as long as it was ethical - you weren't compromising other core beliefs/values.

Here we have a situation where a bunch of folks are taking some pretty serious shots at our perennial scoring leader and his linemates. Over the years, we've seen that and when it's happened, it's pretty rare for the teammates, coach and/or management to sit on their hands and not respond.

This is the sort of allegation that attacks the character of a few of the guys in that room. If it isn't true, it should have been addressed by several teammates, the coach and management in mass some time ago - to nuke it and protect the character of the players being criticized.

I don't think any of that is news to the members of this team. The silence with respect to Kessel and his line of late is kind of deafening.

But does that speak to the media's position as being accurate or to a possible lack of character amongst his teammates?

I think the biggest difference in how we see things is that I'm not sure his teammates' silence is indicative of much of anything.

This season is lost and the media is nuts. Responding to them is not required to preserve the honour of a teammate. Let them do the talking on the ice.

Maybe it's a delicate subject, but I'm wondering if it does have something to do with the generation gap. These guys were born in the 80's and 90's.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

i felt that tucker was much more into the game prior to signing his big contract with toronto.  got his money and ran.....

Surprise, surprise... look at Kessel this year!

Yep.  Open and shut case.  That proves it.

 

[Al14]

i felt that tucker was much more into the game prior to signing his big contract with toronto.  got his money and ran.....

Surprise, surprise... look at Kessel this year!

Yep.  Open and shut case.  That proves it.

Do I detect a tad bit of sarcasm?  :-\

 

[rdowdall]

Nope. That's just another straw man.

See that just says to me, as with the rest of the times you've used the expression, that you don't know what that means. A straw man is constructing a false argument that you attribute to your opponent, that was me directly questioning your objectivity on the matter.

Just out of curiosity, why is it called a straw man?

 

[Al14]

Nope. That's just another straw man.

See that just says to me, as with the rest of the times you've used the expression, that you don't know what that means. A straw man is constructing a false argument that you attribute to your opponent, that was me directly questioning your objectivity on the matter.

Just out of curiosity, why is it called a straw man?

A straw man, aka a scarecrow, lacks a brain???  :-\

 

[Kin]

Just out of curiosity, why is it called a straw man?

I don't think there's a single agreed upon origin but outside of a pretty basic understanding of what it means I can't claim to be an expert on that aspect of it.

 

[rdowdall]

Just out of curiosity, why is it called a straw man?

I don't think there's a single agreed upon origin but outside of a pretty basic understanding of what it means I can't claim to be an expert on that aspect of it.

To the google machine!!!!!

Also, if Phil Kessel was to go on Survivor, how many days do people think he would last?  Would he be the first taken out?  Somewhere in the middle?  Could he go all the way?

 

[rdowdall]

Just out of curiosity, why is it called a straw man?

I don't think there's a single agreed upon origin but outside of a pretty basic understanding of what it means I can't claim to be an expert on that aspect of it.

So:

"As a fallacy, the identification and name of straw man arguments are of relatively recent date, although Aristotle makes remarks that suggest a similar concern;[6] Douglas Walton identified "the first inclusion of it we can find in a textbook as an informal fallacy" in Stuart Chase's Guides to Straight Thinking from 1956 (p. 40).[6][7] However, Hamblin's classic text Fallacies (1970) neither mentions it as a distinct type, nor even as a historical term.[6][7] The idea of "men of straw" who can be knocked down by "the lightest puff, the smallest breath of truth," erected by invaders upon a field to scare away others who might join the movement, can be found in Victoria C. Woodhull's "The Scare-Crows of Sexual Slavery," written in 1873.[8]

The origins of the term are unclear. The usage of the term in rhetoric suggests a human figure made of straw which is easily knocked down or destroyed, such as a military training dummy, scarecrow, or effigy.[9] The rhetorical technique is sometimes called an Aunt Sally in the UK, with reference to a traditional fairground game in which objects are thrown at a fixed target. One common folk etymology is that it refers to men who stood outside courthouses with a straw in their shoe in order to indicate their willingness to be a false witness.[10]"

Also, technically, no one on this board can really compose a straw man argument because:

"To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument."

Taken from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Kin]

Also, technically, no one on this board can really compose a straw man argument because:

"To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument."

Well, not a successful one anyway. Regardless, it's good that we cleared the etymology up.

 

[rdowdall]

Also, technically, no one on this board can really compose a straw man argument because:

"To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument."

Well, not a successful one anyway. Regardless, it's good that we cleared the etymology up.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Phil Kessel debate of 2015.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I don't know if it really matters in the context of this saga but Phil certainly came to his Captains defense recently, at least with the media chum.

Also, I said this on December 23. I think his play, and ghastly lack of finish, has been blown out of proportion over the past two months. If he had a proper cast to work with, he'd be fine.

This is pretty important in my opinion.

People criticizing Kessel, when they are not lunging from one straw man to another or attempting to assassinate his character, never reference that former teammates have spoken highly of him personally and as a competitor.

AND

When they've gone through this horrendous patch, when everyone was tossing out the usual cliche ridden drivel about compete, he stopped the record and went after the media for what he perceived as a slight against his friend and Captain.

I can't help but feel that if he was from Toronto he'd be lauded as a beauty and character guy for going to bat for his team.

 

[Al14]

I don't know if it really matters in the context of this saga but Phil certainly came to his Captains defense recently, at least with the media chum.

Also, I said this on December 23. I think his play, and ghastly lack of finish, has been blown out of proportion over the past two months. If he had a proper cast to work with, he'd be fine.

This is pretty important in my opinion.

People criticizing Kessel, when they are not lunging from one straw man to another or attempting to assassinate his character, never reference that former teammates have spoken highly of him personally and as a competitor.

AND

When they've gone through this horrendous patch, when everyone was tossing out the usual cliche ridden drivel about compete, he stopped the record and went after the media for what he perceived as a slight against his friend and Captain.

I can't help but feel that if he was from Toronto he'd be lauded as a beauty and character guy for going to bat for his team.

To me, his lack of effort on the ice speaks volumes about his character.  He says he is trying, but, I just don't see it.

Well, maybe, it's just that the team around him is just not good enough!  Sort of like Sundin, maybe???

 

[freer]

I don't know if it really matters in the context of this saga but Phil certainly came to his Captains defense recently, at least with the media chum.

Also, I said this on December 23. I think his play, and ghastly lack of finish, has been blown out of proportion over the past two months. If he had a proper cast to work with, he'd be fine.

This is pretty important in my opinion.

People criticizing Kessel, when they are not lunging from one straw man to another or attempting to assassinate his character, never reference that former teammates have spoken highly of him personally and as a competitor.

AND

When they've gone through this horrendous patch, when everyone was tossing out the usual cliche ridden drivel about compete, he stopped the record and went after the media for what he perceived as a slight against his friend and Captain.

I can't help but feel that if he was from Toronto he'd be lauded as a beauty and character guy for going to bat for his team.

To me, his lack of effort on the ice speaks volumes about his character.  He says he is trying, but, I just don't see it.

Well, maybe, it's just that the team around him is just not good enough!  Sort of like Sundin, maybe???

Kessel is in no way to be compared with Sundin! Even when we had crappy teams, they played enthusiast and were always close to getting a play off spot. Kessel is lazy IMO does not have heart.

 

[Kin]

Kessel is in no way to be compared with Sundin! Even when we had crappy teams, they played enthusiast and were always close to getting a play off spot.

Actually, when Sundin was Kessel's age the Leafs were essentially as bad as they are now.

 

[freer]

Kessel is in no way to be compared with Sundin! Even when we had crappy teams, they played enthusiast and were always close to getting a play off spot.

Actually, when Sundin was Kessel's age the Leafs were essentially as bad as they are now.

I do not recall Sundin playing without heart ever. Maybe that is me being Bias to the best leaf to tie up skates!

 

[Kin]

I do not recall Sundin playing without heart ever. Maybe that is me being Bias to the best leaf to tie up skates!

Or it's just that "playing with heart" is such an inherently subjective thing. In the years in question people questioned Sundin's "heart" all the time, especially as he was taking over the leadership of the team from guys like Gilmour and Clark.

 

[cw]

But does that speak to the media's position as being accurate or to a possible lack of character amongst his teammates?

I think the biggest difference in how we see things is that I'm not sure his teammates' silence is indicative of much of anything.

This season is lost and the media is nuts. Responding to them is not required to preserve the honour of a teammate. Let them do the talking on the ice.

Maybe it's a delicate subject, but I'm wondering if it does have something to do with the generation gap. These guys were born in the 80's and 90's.

"Maybe it's a delicate subject"

I'm not sure you meant it for me personally but for what it's worth, there may be something to the "generation gap". I'm feeling it some or wondering about it though it doesn't bother me to discuss it. I'm older - was a boy in the 60s. Part of my concern is an apparent display of an erosion of values. I think that's easier to see over a longer period of time.

Some of this stuff just flies in the face of my "older" notion of how this game should be played and how players should conduct themselves. I find it somewhat offensive. It's hard for me to be a fan of that. On the other hand, I'm not a gigantic Don Cherry fan. Kind of on the fence with him. But when I utter such a thing, it makes me wonder if I'll be perceived as a bit like him - living in the past. Whatever.

We have seen erosion of values in all the pro sports so I'm not oblivious to the progression. I've even seen it in our courts or among members of my generation who are not as ethical as their parents in general in my opinion. That's sad too. And I realize no matter how I feel that it's probably inevitable. And maybe the only debate is whether to do something futile about it or not. What I did feel, maybe somewhat biased through better knowledge of the hockey players, was out of the team sports, I felt hockey players as a group seemed on average to have a better quality of character. So it's had some sort of importance to me. For me to follow them, they had to be athletes I respected. But I don't feel that about some of the players on this roster - it's at an all time low. I've distanced myself from baseball, football and basketball some over the last couple of decades because of it.

It may be impossible to prove but I feel hockey players of decades gone by would cringe at what's been given to Leafs fans this season. If some of them feel shamed or devalued by association or something like that with this debacle of a season, it wouldn't surprise me. The effort is a disgrace.

I'm confident most of the rosters in years gone by, even though they may not be as talented, would have put up more of a dignified fight. They wouldn't lay down as much as these guys have. I think it's a rotten example on how to handle adversity for the kids watching. The guys I watched when I was a kid gave me more - even when they didn't win. I'm talking about making an effort to fight the adversity - not so much with their fists but with their hearts - to kind of preserve their pride a bit, for lack of a better choice of words. Don't lay down. Don't give up.

We've had a bunch of bad teams over the decades I've been watching but I don't recall feeling so empty as watching this group go through the motions. This team is hollow - it has no soul. It lacks demonstrable character.

I don't have a personal hate on for Phil or his linemates. Phil has some wonderful skills. I don't hate hockey players. I'm a Leafs fan. I want the Leafs to do well. I'm not happy when the team loses. That doesn't make my day. I prefer them to do well.  Yet I don't require them to win to feel entertained. A Leafs loss doesn't ruin my day. But I do expect them to make a respectable effort and try. No ifs, ands or buts about it: the team this year hasn't been making a good effort. The management, coaching staff, players, media and fans and stats have all confirmed that in many various ways. It's way beyond debate for me.

Quite frankly, I didn't expect Kessel to rack up the lofty points he has since he got here. I knew he was talented offensively and had studied his scoring around the time of the trade and looked at him when he was drafted. But the higher points than I expected was a bit of a pleasant surprise. So if he came back down to earth a little, I really don't have a problem with that. He's human. I'm not going to nitpick over that. He's one of the better scorers in the league.

Over the years, I think I've defended far more than I've criticized and I've been a pretty patient and loyal fan. At the same time, I've tried to be honest. I was critical of Burke getting Kessel because I wanted a rebuild - not a retool. But I don't hold Burke's shortsightedness against Kessel - that's not Phil's fault. I don't hold it against Phil personally that he got the contract he did. Nonis and management gave it to him - that's their responsibility. I do expect that a guy being given such a contract should try hard and "give back". To a degree, it is a matter of honour - the player gave their word so they should honour it and when they don't, they set a bad example for our kids who look up to them. I'm not convinced Phil or his linemates have made a respectable effort. In fact, I'm sure of it. I think that's wrong. And as a fan, I think I'm well within my rights to voice my displeasure.

I have soul searched some over this. I don't feel great that some folks aren't too happy with my opinions. Things are bad enough for Leafs fans without me pooping on the team and kicking them when they're down. I wondered if I'm just looking back at my rosier times with the Leafs in some sort of distorted/delusional fashion - to the extent that I considered that. But the thing is, I was in the locker room once when they won. I got to see them up close. And I knew a number of those men off the ice and some of their families. I'm sure that I'm not being delusional. The guys that went before this current group of players stood for more. And I truly respect them more for it and maybe appreciate them more today than I did back then.

From that, it's hard for me to sit on my hands. To me, as a Canadian, the Leafs may be owned by MLSE but they're a public trust. You follow a team as long as I have this one and you feel a bit of ownership or a right as a fan. Part of it, and some may chuckle, is I feel Leafs fans are being ripped off. I look at what I got from the team as a kid and then I look at what many of you are getting and there's quite a difference - beyond the number of parades. You deserve better.

Those days gone by are never coming back. That's life. I can deal with that. But they need to really gut this pig of a hockey team and get a few more character players in that kids can look up to and I can respect. I'm not a fan of the garbage we've been served up this year and I can't tolerate it.

Flame away.

 

[cw]

Kessel is in no way to be compared with Sundin!

I wouldn't worry much about that. Ignoring that he isn't as good or as well rounded, I doubt Phil will ever compare favorably with Mats because the character of the two seems light years apart. Phil's problems with his NHL coaches, weakness with the media and his moody disappearing act will haunt him in such comparisons.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I wouldn't worry much about that. Ignoring that he isn't as good or as well rounded, I doubt Phil will ever compare favorably with Mats because the character of the two seems light years apart. Phil's problems with his NHL coaches, weakness with the media and his moody disappearing act will haunt him in such comparisons.

I'm sorry that Phil ran over your dog. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I wouldn't worry much about that. Ignoring that he isn't as good or as well rounded, I doubt Phil will ever compare favorably with Mats because the character of the two seems light years apart. Phil's problems with his NHL coaches, weakness with the media and his moody disappearing act will haunt him in such comparisons.

I'm sorry that Phil ran over your dog. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose.

"Problems with his coaches" - not proven but again, accepted as fact by certain people because a coach with an agenda said something years after being fired

"weakness with the media" - not sure what that means or matters anyway

"moody disappearing act" - can't just say he's played poorly, it has to be "moody", it has to be a "disappearing act."  It's getting pathetic the obsession going on here.