Horachek's impact on the team

[Bates]

Some of you have written about Jeff O'neil and his thoughts vs his personal actions.  You have stated that you don't watch the show.  I do and will give my thoughts on what he has said.  He has said openly that he is a Leafs fan and has been his whole life, even while playing for another team.  He has admitted to being a player who didn't work hard enough in NHL, he regrets it everyday.  He has picked on Phil's effort, says he will not pick on someone's ability or results(points) but that effort can be seen.  He said that he hopes Phil doesn't wake up with regret after career that he didn't put in the work to be the best he can be(like himself).  Lastly he says regularly that all he talks about these days is bad stuff about Leafs but how can he talk positively about this team.  Says he would love to be able to go on air everyday and talk positive about team as he loves the team. 

You guys should tune in sometime, he really is entertaining and gives some good insight to behind the scene stuff.  Analysis is not what I watch for. 

 

[Kin]

I think by far the most impressive display of his horrible character is how #21 and #42 have ceased to have names, simply becoming "Kessel's Linemates" or "Kessel's line" because their own failings, where they're coming from and why they've just sprung up over the last few months aren't getting a ton of talk here. It's just Kessel. Kessel and his history and quotes about him. Why would at least 3 players, none of whom are Phil Kessel all just start "quitting" at the same time? Rather than writing dozens of thousand word posts about just Phil Kessel the widespread malaise that many feel is affecting the entire team might bear examination. The implication of ignoring all of that is pretty clear. Bozak and JVR and Lupul and Bernier and Kadri and anyone else who's gone into the toilet in the past few months? Kessel's fault.

It's sort of like Kessel is The Blob, absorbing all of those around him with his infectious lack of respect for Teeder Kennedy.

 

[bustaheims]

Seriously, cw, you've been grinding this axe for so long, there's nothing left of it but a stick. Time to move on to something new.

 

[Frank E]

I think by far the most impressive display of his horrible character is how #21 and #42 have ceased to have names, simply becoming "Kessel's Linemates" or "Kessel's line" because their own failings, where they're coming from and why they've just sprung up over the last few months aren't getting a ton of talk here. It's just Kessel. Kessel and his history and quotes about him. Why would at least 3 players, none of whom are Phil Kessel all just start "quitting" at the same time? Rather than writing dozens of thousand word posts about just Phil Kessel the widespread malaise that many feel is affecting the entire team might bear examination. The implication of ignoring all of that is pretty clear. Bozak and JVR and Lupul and Bernier and Kadri and anyone else who's gone into the toilet in the past few months? Kessel's fault.

It's sort of like Kessel is The Blob, absorbing all of those around him with his infectious lack of respect for Teeder Kennedy.

Rightfully so, there are more expectations on Kessel than the others on his line. 

He's not a media darling like Sundin was, he doesn't play a strong defensive game, and yeah, he has disappeared as an effective part of this team's offensive production.

He plays pro-hockey and signed a big money contract that takes up a disproportionately large part of the team's payroll, and there's going to be some scrutiny there.  When he's not producing at a disproportionately higher rate than his teammates, he's going to hear about it.  Pretending that Kessel should be treated like Bozak or JVR is not realistic. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think by far the most impressive display of his horrible character is how #21 and #42 have ceased to have names, simply becoming "Kessel's Linemates" or "Kessel's line" because their own failings, where they're coming from and why they've just sprung up over the last few months aren't getting a ton of talk here. It's just Kessel. Kessel and his history and quotes about him. Why would at least 3 players, none of whom are Phil Kessel all just start "quitting" at the same time? Rather than writing dozens of thousand word posts about just Phil Kessel the widespread malaise that many feel is affecting the entire team might bear examination. The implication of ignoring all of that is pretty clear. Bozak and JVR and Lupul and Bernier and Kadri and anyone else who's gone into the toilet in the past few months? Kessel's fault.

It's sort of like Kessel is The Blob, absorbing all of those around him with his infectious lack of respect for Teeder Kennedy.

Rightfully so, there are more expectations on Kessel than the others on his line. 

He's not a media darling like Sundin was, he doesn't play a strong defensive game, and yeah, he has disappeared as an effective part of this team's offensive production.

He plays pro-hockey and signed a big money contract that takes up a disproportionately large part of the team's payroll, and there's going to be some scrutiny there.  When he's not producing at a disproportionately higher rate than his teammates, he's going to hear about it.  Pretending that Kessel should be treated like Bozak or JVR is not realistic.

But the comment was never that they should be treated the same as Kessel.

 

[Highlander]

If this Phil bashing doesnt stop I will have to reload on my Valium prescription!

 

[Frank E]

I think by far the most impressive display of his horrible character is how #21 and #42 have ceased to have names, simply becoming "Kessel's Linemates" or "Kessel's line" because their own failings, where they're coming from and why they've just sprung up over the last few months aren't getting a ton of talk here. It's just Kessel. Kessel and his history and quotes about him. Why would at least 3 players, none of whom are Phil Kessel all just start "quitting" at the same time? Rather than writing dozens of thousand word posts about just Phil Kessel the widespread malaise that many feel is affecting the entire team might bear examination. The implication of ignoring all of that is pretty clear. Bozak and JVR and Lupul and Bernier and Kadri and anyone else who's gone into the toilet in the past few months? Kessel's fault.

It's sort of like Kessel is The Blob, absorbing all of those around him with his infectious lack of respect for Teeder Kennedy.

Rightfully so, there are more expectations on Kessel than the others on his line. 

He's not a media darling like Sundin was, he doesn't play a strong defensive game, and yeah, he has disappeared as an effective part of this team's offensive production.

He plays pro-hockey and signed a big money contract that takes up a disproportionately large part of the team's payroll, and there's going to be some scrutiny there.  When he's not producing at a disproportionately higher rate than his teammates, he's going to hear about it.  Pretending that Kessel should be treated like Bozak or JVR is not realistic.

But the comment was never that they should be treated the same as Kessel.

I took it that Nik was saying that Kessel's linemates have received a fair bit of flak around here, as well as Kessel, and that the criticism has been properly spread around. 

I'm just saying that Kessel is going to be the lightening rod for the criticism, and that he's fair game for that. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think by far the most impressive display of his horrible character is how #21 and #42 have ceased to have names, simply becoming "Kessel's Linemates" or "Kessel's line" because their own failings, where they're coming from and why they've just sprung up over the last few months aren't getting a ton of talk here. It's just Kessel. Kessel and his history and quotes about him. Why would at least 3 players, none of whom are Phil Kessel all just start "quitting" at the same time? Rather than writing dozens of thousand word posts about just Phil Kessel the widespread malaise that many feel is affecting the entire team might bear examination. The implication of ignoring all of that is pretty clear. Bozak and JVR and Lupul and Bernier and Kadri and anyone else who's gone into the toilet in the past few months? Kessel's fault.

It's sort of like Kessel is The Blob, absorbing all of those around him with his infectious lack of respect for Teeder Kennedy.

Rightfully so, there are more expectations on Kessel than the others on his line. 

He's not a media darling like Sundin was, he doesn't play a strong defensive game, and yeah, he has disappeared as an effective part of this team's offensive production.

He plays pro-hockey and signed a big money contract that takes up a disproportionately large part of the team's payroll, and there's going to be some scrutiny there.  When he's not producing at a disproportionately higher rate than his teammates, he's going to hear about it.  Pretending that Kessel should be treated like Bozak or JVR is not realistic.

But the comment was never that they should be treated the same as Kessel.

I took it that Nik was saying that Kessel's linemates have received a fair bit of flak around here, as well as Kessel, and that the criticism has been properly spread around. 

I'm just saying that Kessel is going to be the lightening rod for the criticism, and that he's fair game for that.

I took it to say that Kessel is getting ridiculous amounts of criticism while the rest of the forwards who haven't shown up either are being virtually ignored or treated as if they have no impact on the team anyway - aka it's either Kessel's going and picking everyone up, or Kessel isn't and therefore no one else can perform well.

Sure there's fair game and then there's ridiculous vendettas against one player in a team sport.

 

[Chris]

Ultimately we should all thank them (Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Lupul and whoever else you want to include) for their service in this period of tanking, and wish them well with their future teams.

Like it or not, Kessel is the most talented player, the face of the franchise, most highly paid...and as such he's going to get the bulk of the criticism. Many of you have posted stats showing how Kessel drives the offense, how other players (especially Bozak) see their stats drop when they aren't with Kessel...so why wouldn't you also focus the blame there when things go bad?

 

[Kin]

It's important to keep in mind that this thread, at one point, was about Horacheck and his impact on the team. The comment of mine that Frank and Potvin were discussing, in some ways, is about that.

I'm not so much interested in blaming various players and I don't think blame is a finite resource that needs to be apportioned in a specific manner. I'm interested in what's going on with the team that's led to the state they're in, a state where multiple players look to be putting in a half-assed effort, where Kadri apparently went off the rails, where just about everyone's play has dropped, regardless of what we might want to say about their "effort".

If certain fans want to turn Kessel into this team's iteration of Larry Murphy...I don't really care. But "Kessel" can't be the answer for why Kadri's screwing up or why JVR can't find the net or why Bernier stinks all of a sudden. I don't even think, despite all the words wasted on it, that there's even a ton of disagreement about Kessel right now. I'm just more interested in what conditions exist right now that's affecting everyone including Kessel. Personally, I don't see how that doesn't land on Horacheck.

 

[Chris]

Some of it must be on Horachek, but there is no way to know how much. The free-fall was well underway before he took over. He imposed his possession-oriented approach and the players responded for a while, improving the fancy stats...but the results (wins, losses, goals scored) didn't follow. That's when the bulk of the "core" appeared to pack it in.

How do you assign blame here? I still maintain that if the players are "quitters" by nature, no amount of motivation will change that. Especially since management apparently decided (smartly, I think) not to try to bring any young players up unless they had to due to injury, so Horacheck had to play the roster he had. You can argue about ice time, power-play time, etc, and I agree I would have liked to see more experimentation there. But would it have mattered?

Don't forget this is the same roster that collapsed last year under a different coach. So again...where does the bulk of the blame most likely lie?

 

[Highlander]

I am going to start blaming Phil when they go on a winning streak under the new coach.

 

[Leaflifer]

Ultimately we should all thank them (Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Lupul and whoever else you want to include) for their service in this period of tanking, and wish them well with their future teams.

Like it or not, Kessel is the most talented player, the face of the franchise, most highly paid...and as such he's going to get the bulk of the criticism. Many of you have posted stats showing how Kessel drives the offense, how other players (especially Bozak) see their stats drop when they aren't with Kessel...so why wouldn't you also focus the blame there when things go bad?

It's true. Kessel is no leader, and he probably doesn't communicate well (not a stretch to say that).

Being the highest paid player in a young dressing room defaults him as a leader, whether you or I think it's right or not. The money makes him more important to the team in the eyes of the others. (not a stretch to say that either). His presence in the room needed to be diluted with real leadership, something Phaneuf could not provide, and no one else seemed to be able to do either. They play like a bunch of kids, cause they are.

Their lack of effort isn't a result of just deciding to give up. Management quit on them, not the other way around. However, the current management had little choice as the team was poorly built from the get go (Thanks Burke, I always knew you were a blow-hard, just like Sather...all talk and no substance)

There were times when Carlyle had this team playing winning hockey. The first half of last year the Leafs top line were the most prolific in the league. In hindsight, he was a pretty good coach. He seemed to be the only one that was aware that this moneypuck hockey is a pile of BS. "The team doesnt have enough possession"...well, no s**t sherlock. Another way to determine that is to have half a brain in your head and watch a game or two. You can throw as many stats as you want at this group and it's not going to make them better.

In order for a team to do better in those areas takes something that he knew all along. Play harder, play 60min. To play harder this team needs players in a leadership role that are going to do that, every shift. Kessel isn't the guy to do everything, and he never will be.

I also don't believe that gobs of money should make them play harder as some seem to think. If that were the case, players would get better simply by increasing their pay, as opposed to being paid as a reward for good play. Players are subject to the same quirks we all are. I do my job as hard as I can. I have days when I'm not 100%, not for lack of trying. Pay me a billion dollars and I still do the same job.

This years draft needs to pot the Leafs a warrior.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

There were times when Carlyle had this team playing winning hockey. The first half of last year the Leafs top line were the most prolific in the league. In hindsight, he was a pretty good coach. He seemed to be the only one that was aware that this moneypuck hockey is a pile of BS. "The team doesnt have enough possession"...well, no s**t sherlock. Another way to determine that is to have half a brain in your head and watch a game or two. You can throw as many stats as you want at this group and it's not going to make them better.

What does this even mean?  You can throw as many stats as you want at this group and it's not going to make them better?  Literally no one advocated "throwing stats" at this group.

"Gravity is what keeps objects grounded."  Well no ****! Another way to determine that is to have half a brain in your head and throw something in the air.

Do you see how ridiculous that way of thinking is?  Is there no point studying things in your mind?  Is there no point trying to pinpoint why certain things occur or why they don't?

There is no "moneypuck hockey."  You've done nothing but demonstrate your inability to grasp the "debate."

From now on whenever anyone mentions goals, assists, points, +/- your reaction better be "well no **** I can just watch the games to tell me that" because it's the same thing - they're all just potential indicators of success or not, same as the "moneypuck" stuff.

 

[Kin]

So long as there's sort of an underlying basic level of "blame" that applies to more or less everyone, does it really matter how specifically it's apportioned? If you take the most charitable view on Kessel possible, does it mean he shouldn't be traded? If you take the least charitable view...should they trade him twice? Try to kneecap him on the way out?

Aside from maybe Kadri I don't see how untangling any of that fundamentally shifts how we should look at any of these players in a practical sense. Most of them should go, there's enough blame to go around. Other than a sense of smug self-satisfaction of sitting in moral judgment on these guys I really don't see the point of blowing a gasket about individual culpability.

 

[Frank E]

Are there any statistics that show some marked improvement of some aspect of this team under Horachek? 

 

[Frank E]

So long as there's sort of an underlying basic level of "blame" that applies to more or less everyone, does it really matter how specifically it's apportioned?

Yes, I think it does.

They still have to ice a team next year, so it behooves the Leafs to determine who is able to handle the pressure of playing through a losing season.

They can't trade the whole roster, or at least that's not really feasible.  And even if it were, it's not like the Leafs just have a whole team of losers that will never be successful NHLers in their defined roles. 

 

[Deebo]

And even if it were, it's not like the Leafs just have a whole team of losers that will never be successful NHLers in their defined roles. 

Only the best player on the team is a loser who will never be a successful NHLer in his role as a top line winger.

 

[Chris]

Are there any statistics that show some marked improvement of some aspect of this team under Horachek?

I seem to recall that a lot of the possession metrics improved markedly when Horacheck took over (including shots against). Not sure if that remained true as the losing continued.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Are there any statistics that show some marked improvement of some aspect of this team under Horachek?

I seem to recall that a lot of the possession metrics improved markedly when Horacheck took over (including shots against). Not sure if that remained true as the losing continued.

Initially they improved a ton, but they had a killer road schedule, guys got traded, etc. and they fell off again.  They're still about 4% better overall possession-wise since the change - but coupled with the 5th worst SV% & 2nd worst SH% since then....it doesn't mean much for the results. 

Gardiner's been great though.