Idiocracy

[louisstamos]

When was their last attack?  They aren't comparable to ISIS in any meaningful way except they have backwards beliefs.

Dylann Roof?

 

[Bates]

Wanna compare that with ISIS?

When was their last attack?  They aren't comparable to ISIS in any meaningful way except they have backwards beliefs.

Dylann Roof?

 

[princedpw]

Worth reading the tweetstorm:

https://twitter.com/KirkWJohnson/status/825830075278823424

Good read.  I agree, many of those people deserve a place in America.  I don't disagree with that, & believe that President Trump feels the same way.  The key is having a process where bad people aren't allowed admittance, those already vetted retain their status, & refugees that need our assistance are welcomed.  Like I said before....this initiative was rushed forward without much planning.  Basically, it was a mess.  The fine tuning has already started with the green card consideration (last night).  Let's see how this plays out once they work out all the kinks in the process.  I can certainly understand & sympathize how this was a shock to the system for many Americans, Canadians, etc.

I'm guilty of jumping into the middle of this thread without reading much of the context.

Something like this immigration ban can seem pretty abstract if you don't know anyone who is personally affected.  Unfortunately, it really does have a severe impact on the lives of individuals unfortunate enough to get caught up in it.  I attached a note from Facebook from one of my friends. He's a professor at MIT and without a doubt, one of the top researchers in the world when it comes to the design, implementation and optimization of data center networks.  At MIT, he teaches the brightest american kids about networking research.  Before MIT, he worked for CISCO, helping that American company develop the technology that will make it outcompete competitors from around the world.  On a personal level, he is incredible humble, friendly and soft spoken.  I can't really imagine him even raising his voice.  He's that kind of person.

A snippet from Mohammad Alizadeh on Facebook:

My wife wept uncontrollably on Friday night. And there was nothing I could do about it. I sat there, shell-shocked, trying to figure out how to comfort her while shielding our four-month-old son from the sight of his mother weeping. Our son had just gone to sleep. He jolted awake at the sound of his mother's wails. He stared at her, silently, eyes wide. He did not cry or fuss. They say babies instinctively understand human emotion. I think this is accurate.
My mother-in-law had just been denied permission to board a flight to the United States at Abu Dhabi International Airport. We had been glued to our phones, waiting anxiously for two hours to hear from her. "I'm being deported," her message on WhatsApp eventually read. The rest of that nightmarish night will haunt me for a long time.

Our ordeal did not begin with President Trump's Executive Order to ban citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries, including Iran, from entering the United States. It began almost a year ago when my mother-in-law started a lengthy visa application process so she could be with her daughter for her first pregnancy. Her first application was denied in the summer. I remember that night well too. They had denied my mother-in-law's application without explanation. We were disappointed but not surprised. We had been through this before. In 2011, it took my mother-in-law two attempts to secure a visa before visiting us for the first and only time in the ten years that we have lived in the United States.

My mother-in-law would apply for a visa again a few months later at the U.S. Embassy in Dubai. This time, her application was approved, pending a security clearance check. Alas, her security clearance took until a couple of weeks ago to go through.

My wife delivered our son without her mother by her side. We raised our new-born baby without family by our side. Our parents have yet to meet their grandchild --- the first on either side --- in person.

This long-overdue family gathering was supposed to happen next month. We had it all planned out. Our family had been making arrangements for weeks. They bought a crib for our son. They bought him a bath tub. They even tracked down his favorite Fisher's Price sleeper. Our extended family, who live in four different cities across Iran, had made plans to travel to Tehran to reunite with us.

All this planning was for nothing. Mr. Trump's blanket travel ban, his so-called "Muslim ban," is so extreme, so draconian, that it does not even spare people like us who have been permanent U.S. residents for several years. So we canceled our trip and scrambled to get my mother-in-law here instead. You already know the rest.

I'm not writing this story to over-dramatize our situation. Sadly, there is nothing special about our situation. Our family is but one of thousands already affected by this nonsensical ban. If anything, our story is mild. I fear that we'll be hearing much more harrowing stories over the next weeks and months.
I'm writing this story to do my part to put a face to this tragedy and urge us all to act.

I want to end on an important note: My wife and I are not victims. America has been very good to us. This country has given us the opportunity to get a first-rate education and reach heights that we never dreamed possible. I go to work every day to a job that I love, privileged to be surrounded by some of the best and brightest people on the planet.

No, we're not victims. We're going to be just fine.

 

[princedpw]

The key is having a process where bad people aren't allowed admittance, those already vetted retain their status, & refugees that need our assistance are welcomed. 

The unfortunate thing is that the myth that refugees are admitted into the country with insufficient vetting has been pushed over and over again.  Unfortunately, when that is all one hears, people begin to believe it.  And once people begin to believe something like this, they simply discard facts and data that don't align with their beliefs unfortunately.  (I'm of course the same -- I probably have a bunch of beliefs that aren't backed by the facts.)

No security system is ever going to be perfect, but US security under Obama has been pretty good --- better than under George W Bush by some metrics.  As has been mentioned by others, upheaval of the system is likely to cause a lot more harm than good.

There is a very strong national security argument that we need to vote for Democrats up and down the ticket in the 2018 elections.  The political reality is that when Trump makes a mistake like this, it is very difficult for well-meaning Republicans to stand up to him because he has such a powerful base in the Republican party.  It is necessary to elect Democrats so there are some checks and balances in government.

O&B -- is there anything I can do to convince you to vote Democrats in 2018?

 

[bustaheims]

When was their last attack?  They aren't comparable to ISIS in any meaningful way except they have backwards beliefs.

When was the last time ISIS - not an ISIS sympathizer - attack anyone on US soil? There have been ZERO terrorist attacks on US soil committed by refugees. ZERO.

Meanwhile, there's been a string of anti-abortion terrorist attacks over the last 30 years, murders by the KKK have occurred as recently as this past summer, etc. They may not have committed a large scale publicized attack, but, reports link significantly more deaths in the US to these groups than to Islamic terrorists. They have been - and continue to be - the bigger threat to American lives..

 

[louisstamos]

Wanna compare that with ISIS?

When was their last attack?  They aren't comparable to ISIS in any meaningful way except they have backwards beliefs.

Dylann Roof?

Sure.

Number of Americans killed on American Soil by Dylann Roof in 2015 = 9.
Number of Americans killed on American Soil by ISIS in 2015 = 14 (all in the San Bernadino attack)

That is not to say that ISIS isn't a real threat, or shouldn't be taken seriously.  They absolutely should be, and any attempts for them to mobilize properly should be met with resistance.  But what Trump is doing with his executive orders is like trying to perform surgery with a chainsaw rather than a scalpel.  He's doing a lot more harm than good with it, and is alienating American citizens/people with PR.

To be honest, with the expansive intelligence networks and high level of scrutiny with refugees - you're more likely to have someone who was born and raised in the US, or immigrated a long time ago, perform a terrorist attack in the name of ISIS rather than a refugee gaining admittance as a "secret soldier."

 

[bustaheims]

The key is having a process where bad people aren't allowed admittance, those already vetted retain their status, & refugees that need our assistance are welcomed. 

The process exists already. Refugees are vetted by multiple government agencies on multiple occasions before they're given a ticket to the US (and, we're talking about refugees that can't afford tickets on their own, so, this is the only way they're getting to the US). This process can take up to two years, and already does an excellent job of filtering out the "bad people."

 

[Bates]

I don't recall  making any such claim??  I simply refuted your claim that there are more possible terrorists in the US from those organizations that the 7 Countries now restricted combined, which is really quite silly.  Now would you suggest because there are already plenty of possible terrorists in the US they should just abandon the Border?  The plan is still silly and will change little.

When was their last attack?  They aren't comparable to ISIS in any meaningful way except they have backwards beliefs.

When was the last time ISIS - not an ISIS sympathizer - attack anyone on US soil? There have been ZERO terrorist attacks on US soil committed by refugees. ZERO.

Meanwhile, there's been a string of anti-abortion terrorist attacks over the last 30 years, murders by the KKK have occurred as recently as this past summer, etc. They may not have committed a large scale publicized attack, but, reports link significantly more deaths in the US to these groups than to Islamic terrorists. They have been - and continue to be - the bigger threat to American lives..

 

[Kin]

That comparable makes no sense??

It makes perfect sense. Regardless of his rationale for choosing those 7 countries he still chose them. Whether it was based on a previous policy or not, the choosing of those 7 countries is still on him.

 

[Bates]

Still really doesn't.  He used the intelligence community's list of Countries that they thought should require extra vetting before entering the US for the security of the US.  He just happened to have jumped the shark with a program that seems to have actually been working. 

That comparable makes no sense??

It makes perfect sense. Regardless of his rationale for choosing those 7 countries he still chose them. Whether it was based on a previous policy or not, the choosing of those 7 countries is still on him.

 

[Kin]

Still really doesn't.  He used the intelligence community's list of Countries that they thought should require extra vetting before entering the US for the security of the US.

It doesn't matter what his justification is. He is still the one making the choice. And given that during the campaign he not only repeatedly disparaged the intelligence communities but also called the former president literally the founder of ISIS the "Well, he's just going by what the last guy did" can't be seen as honest justification for just coincidentally agreeing whole-heartedly with him on the one matter that doesn't put his business interests at risk.

Or you can believe that's all a coincidence and we can start talking about the lovely bridge in Brooklyn I can get for you at a reasonable price.

 

[Bates]

So if Trump picked these Countries over others because of his business interests why do you think the Obama Administration picked them??  Were they also looking out for Trump's business interests?

Still really doesn't.  He used the intelligence community's list of Countries that they thought should require extra vetting before entering the US for the security of the US.

It doesn't matter what his justification is. He is still the one making the choice. And given that during the campaign he not only repeatedly disparaged the intelligence communities but also called the former president literally the founder of ISIS the "Well, he's just going by what the last guy did" can't be seen as honest justification for just coincidentally agreeing whole-heartedly with him on the one matter that doesn't put his business interests at risk.

Or you can believe that's all a coincidence and we can start talking about the lovely bridge in Brooklyn I can get for you at a reasonable price.

 

[Kin]

So if Trump picked these Countries over others because of his business interests why do you think the Obama Administration picked them??  Were they also looking out for Trump's business interests?

I can't say for certain but there is absolutely a possibility that Obama and previous Administrations have sculpted some of their mid-east policy with inconsistent standards meant to protect American business interests in the region. I'm afraid it's not quite the "gotcha" moment you were hoping for for me to say that Centrist Democrats are also too tied to corporate interests because I say that on an almost hourly basis.

The difference of course is that there's no direct conflict of interest the way there is with Trump and "added scrutiny" is an entirely different policy with far fewer ramifications than what we're seeing. The Obama administration's policy isn't and wasn't one likely to be met with reprisals from other countries whereas if Trump were to include countries he did business with on this list it would almost certainly hurt him financially directly.

This is why having direct conflicts of interest completely reshape the landscape. Nothing can be looked at innocently.

 

[Bates]

I have no idea how when I answered "How did he pick these Countries" question, which was insinuating that Trump did it with ulterior motives, I pointed out that it's the same list of apparent risky Countries that previous Govt used I'm apparently looking for a gotcha moment.  If anything I kinda spoiled that moment.   

So if Trump picked these Countries over others because of his business interests why do you think the Obama Administration picked them??  Were they also looking out for Trump's business interests?

I can't say for certain but there is absolutely a possibility that Obama and previous Administrations have sculpted some of their mid-east policy with inconsistent standards meant to protect American business interests in the region. I'm afraid it's not quite the "gotcha" moment you were hoping for for me to say that Centrist Democrats are also too tied to corporate interests because I say that on an almost hourly basis.

The difference of course is that there's no direct conflict of interest the way there is with Trump and "added scrutiny" is an entirely different policy with far fewer ramifications than what we're seeing. The Obama administration's policy isn't and wasn't one likely to be met with reprisals from other countries whereas if Trump were to include countries he did business with on this list it would almost certainly hurt him financially directly.

This is why having direct conflicts of interest completely reshape the landscape. Nothing can be looked at innocently.

 

[Kin]

I have no idea how when I answered "How did he pick these Countries" question, which was insinuating that Trump did it with ulterior motives, I pointed out that it's the same list of apparent risky Countries that previous Govt used for an entirely different, non-inflammatory policy I'm apparently looking for a gotcha moment.  If anything I kinda spoiled that moment.

FTFY.

 

[Bates]

You can spin it, twist it, turn it, or completely rewrite it if you want but if you want to know where Trump got the list of Countries on his plan it was just sitting there on the desk waiting for him. 

 

[Arn]

So was last night the first step in the Trump Rohm-putsch/ Night of the Long Knives?

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I'm guilty of jumping into the middle of this thread without reading much of the context.

Something like this immigration ban can seem pretty abstract if you don't know anyone who is personally affected.  Unfortunately, it really does have a severe impact on the lives of individuals unfortunate enough to get caught up in it.  I attached a note from Facebook from one of my friends. He's a professor at MIT and without a doubt, one of the top researchers in the world when it comes to the design, implementation and optimization of data center networks.  At MIT, he teaches the brightest american kids about networking research.  Before MIT, he worked for CISCO, helping that American company develop the technology that will make it outcompete competitors from around the world.  On a personal level, he is incredible humble, friendly and soft spoken.  I can't really imagine him even raising his voice.  He's that kind of person.

A snippet from Mohammad Alizadeh on Facebook:

My wife wept uncontrollably on Friday night. And there was nothing I could do about it. I sat there, shell-shocked, trying to figure out how to comfort her while shielding our four-month-old son from the sight of his mother weeping. Our son had just gone to sleep. He jolted awake at the sound of his mother's wails. He stared at her, silently, eyes wide. He did not cry or fuss. They say babies instinctively understand human emotion. I think this is accurate.
My mother-in-law had just been denied permission to board a flight to the United States at Abu Dhabi International Airport. We had been glued to our phones, waiting anxiously for two hours to hear from her. "I'm being deported," her message on WhatsApp eventually read. The rest of that nightmarish night will haunt me for a long time.

Our ordeal did not begin with President Trump's Executive Order to ban citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries, including Iran, from entering the United States. It began almost a year ago when my mother-in-law started a lengthy visa application process so she could be with her daughter for her first pregnancy. Her first application was denied in the summer. I remember that night well too. They had denied my mother-in-law's application without explanation. We were disappointed but not surprised. We had been through this before. In 2011, it took my mother-in-law two attempts to secure a visa before visiting us for the first and only time in the ten years that we have lived in the United States.

My mother-in-law would apply for a visa again a few months later at the U.S. Embassy in Dubai. This time, her application was approved, pending a security clearance check. Alas, her security clearance took until a couple of weeks ago to go through.

My wife delivered our son without her mother by her side. We raised our new-born baby without family by our side. Our parents have yet to meet their grandchild --- the first on either side --- in person.

This long-overdue family gathering was supposed to happen next month. We had it all planned out. Our family had been making arrangements for weeks. They bought a crib for our son. They bought him a bath tub. They even tracked down his favorite Fisher's Price sleeper. Our extended family, who live in four different cities across Iran, had made plans to travel to Tehran to reunite with us.

All this planning was for nothing. Mr. Trump's blanket travel ban, his so-called "Muslim ban," is so extreme, so draconian, that it does not even spare people like us who have been permanent U.S. residents for several years. So we canceled our trip and scrambled to get my mother-in-law here instead. You already know the rest.

I'm not writing this story to over-dramatize our situation. Sadly, there is nothing special about our situation. Our family is but one of thousands already affected by this nonsensical ban. If anything, our story is mild. I fear that we'll be hearing much more harrowing stories over the next weeks and months.
I'm writing this story to do my part to put a face to this tragedy and urge us all to act.

I want to end on an important note: My wife and I are not victims. America has been very good to us. This country has given us the opportunity to get a first-rate education and reach heights that we never dreamed possible. I go to work every day to a job that I love, privileged to be surrounded by some of the best and brightest people on the planet.

No, we're not victims. We're going to be just fine.

Thanks for sharing, princedpw.  It's a sad story and one that is being experienced in so many ways by so many innocent people.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/30/white-nationalists-praise-trumps-muslim-ban_partner/

Daily Stormer Feels ?Ecstatic Joy,? Suggests Trump Should Arrest Federal Judge And Kill Protesters. The Daily Stormer is a neo-Nazi website that celebrates Hitler and frequently attacks Jewish people. The site is ecstatic over Trump?s Muslim ban.

Writer ?Azzmador? wrote a post headlined ?Glorious Leader Wreaks Havoc on Filthy Moslem Would-Be Invaders.? He added (emphasis original): ?Of course, it is a Muslim ban. We just can?t call it that?yet. But it?s definitely subhuman raghead heathens at the shit end of Glorious Leader?s big stick, and they are taking a walloping, bigly.? The writer concluded by hoping that Trump would put Muslims in gas chambers:

So everything just keeps getting better and better. President Trump is working at breakneck speed to not only meet, but to exceed his campaign promises.

It?s already been one helluva first week.

By the end of the month, we should have the rails laid, the camps built, and the gas flowing like Febreze.

Site editor Andrew Anglin wrote that he is feeling ?ecstatic joy? and feels ?like crying.? From his post:

So I?m really feeling a lot of different emotions right now. I feel ecstatic joy. I feel admiration for our GLORIOUS LEADER. I feel shame for having doubted him. I feel sadness at the loss my city has suffered. I feel rage at the people who allowed the home I knew as a child to be ravaged by these disgusting animals when they could have just as easily said ?Somalians? uh, yeah, no ? they?re totally banned.?

But most of all?

I?m feeling comfy, fam.

And also, I feel like crying.

God bless you, Donald Trump.

May you never die.

Anglin also called on Trump to ?arrest treasonous federal judge Ann Donnelly for trying to flood America with terrorists? after she issued an emergency order temporarily halting Trump?s travel ban. He wrote: ?I am hereby calling on Trump to issue a warrant for her arrest. ? Trump needs to arrest this woman immediately and have her charged with treason. If other judges protest, he needs to declare martial law and have them all rounded up and interned. We are at war here. This isn?t a game.? He also called on Trump to raid ACLU offices ?with all head figures arrested and charged with conspiracy to undermine America and the promotion of terrorism against America.?

Anglin suggested that Trump should kill protesters in the same fashion that Ohio National Guardsmen did when they killed four students at Kent State University in 1970. He wrote: ?All we need is one Kent State-style incident, and this crap is going to end real quick. But maybe putting the DC rioters in prison for ten years will do the trick.?

I've always wondered how the more rational portion of Trump supporters deal with being on the same side as this type of disgusting filth.

 

[iwas11in67]

http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/30/blm-anti-trump-protest-in-seattle-we-need-to-start-killing-people/

I've always wondered how the more rational portion of the left supporters deal with being on the same side as this type of disgusting filth.