Idiocracy

[Kin]

I take little of what Trump said as actual fact.  The only fact in this scenario is that the same group of Countries that were targeted by previous US Administration are still being targeted by current US Administration.

Sure, but that's just ignoring the actual substance of the policy which is the real issue. "Targeting" is not a catch all that can equally apply to any grouping.

 

[Bender]

No objection but people were asking why these Countries were chosen and implied it was about Trump business interest. 

Just wanted to point out that the Obama Administration picked the Countries, Trump just suspended their Visa program.  Its still dumb buts its not just on Trump.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

Implementation of a loose policy makes it not just Trump, but mostly Trump.

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I don't think it didn't cross his mind that the ban and his dealings didn't intersect.

Further Reading:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/no-barack-obama-jimmy-carter-9717520

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[Bender]

Just wanted to point out that the Obama Administration picked the Countries, Trump just suspended their Visa program.  Its still dumb buts its not just on Trump.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

This is correct. And it was disheartening when the American left shrugged off that -- and all the other continuations, extensions, and insufficient reversals of Bush's horrible policies. At least now, there's a mass movement against this garbage.

Also, all those pointing out that none of ban-list countries sent any terrorists: please stop.

[tweet]825404118776815617[/tweet]

Can't open the link. I think it's in reference to 9/11 and I believe no 9/11 terrorists came from regions banned outright. Either way the net effect is precision surgery with a machete rather than a scalpel. I wouldn't be surprised if this made the world more dangerous for Americans of all types, not safer.

 

[Bates]

I think you are taking my post to mean I support or even think the policy makes sense?  Neither is true I was just posting in response to folks who asked how Trump picked his Countries, he didn't,  he just used the previous list. 

I take little of what Trump said as actual fact.  The only fact in this scenario is that the same group of Countries that were targeted by previous US Administration are still being targeted by current US Administration.

Sure, but that's just ignoring the actual substance of the policy which is the real issue. "Targeting" is not a catch all that can equally apply to any grouping.

 

[mr grieves]

Can't open the link. I think it's in reference to 9/11 and I believe no 9/11 terrorists came from regions banned outright. Either way the net effect is precision surgery with a machete rather than a scalpel. I wouldn't be surprised if this made the world more dangerous for Americans of all types, not safer.

I think it's in reference to countries where extremist groups were operating and where those with passports from countries in the VWP would, presumably, travel only to get radicalized and receive terror training.

Incidentally, each of the countries added in February 2016 -- Libya, Somalia, and Yemen -- were on the receiving end of dozens of US drone strikes, which certainly did make the world more dangerous.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Worth reading the tweetstorm:

https://twitter.com/KirkWJohnson/status/825830075278823424

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

All these years I wondered if I'd see the Leafs win a Cup before I die.  Then finally when things are looking up, I now have to wonder whether the Leafs will win a Cup before Trump precipitates the end of civilization as we know it.  Bummer.

 

[Kin]

I think you are taking my post to mean I support or even think the policy makes sense?  Neither is true I was just posting in response to folks who asked how Trump picked his Countries, he didn't,  he just used the previous list. 

No, what I'm saying is that the two policies are unrelated to each other so there is no "previous list".

To use an extreme example to highlight my point, let's say tomorrow Trump announces he's going to build golden statues of himself on the roof of the US embassies of every NATO member. If you or I or anyone else then asked "Why do that only in those countries?" then it would be kind of unsatisfactory to hear back "Trump didn't invent NATO, he just used the previous list of NATO countries".

Regardless of whether or not those 7 countries were grouped together under an existing, fairly non-inflammatory policy Trump still did select them for his new fairly unconnected super-inflammatory policy and he is still responsible for their grouping/selection and has to justify it independently of "Yeah but Obama grouped them for a different reason".

 

[Kin]

All these years I wondered if I'd see the Leafs win a Cup before I die.  Then finally when things are looking up, I now have to wonder whether the Leafs will win a Cup before Trump precipitates the end of civilization as we know it.  Bummer.

I've been calling that since last summer:

Scotland's saying they're going to have a second referendum, the PM resigned, Sinn F?in is talking about a border poll...figures that the Leafs get the first overall pick and we start living in the end times.

 

[Arn]

terrorist nations

Can you please clarify, what exactly are "terrorist nations"?

Sorry, I'll clarify.....didn't mean any offense.  What I meant were nations where a large number of terrorists reside.  It's already been stated that a few of these type of countries are conspicuous by their absence....we can all agree on that.

Is Ireland a terrorist nation? There's a load of terrorists here.

But hang on, your presidents love to hang out with them

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[Heroic Shrimp]

All these years I wondered if I'd see the Leafs win a Cup before I die.  Then finally when things are looking up, I now have to wonder whether the Leafs will win a Cup before Trump precipitates the end of civilization as we know it.  Bummer.

I've been calling that since last summer:

Scotland's saying they're going to have a second referendum, the PM resigned, Sinn F?in is talking about a border poll...figures that the Leafs get the first overall pick and we start living in the end times.

Apocalypster.

 

[OrangeBlack]

Worth reading the tweetstorm:

https://twitter.com/KirkWJohnson/status/825830075278823424

Good read.  I agree, many of those people deserve a place in America.  I don't disagree with that, & believe that President Trump feels the same way.  The key is having a process where bad people aren't allowed admittance, those already vetted retain their status, & refugees that need our assistance are welcomed.  Like I said before....this initiative was rushed forward without much planning.  Basically, it was a mess.  The fine tuning has already started with the green card consideration (last night).  Let's see how this plays out once they work out all the kinks in the process.  I can certainly understand & sympathize how this was a shock to the system for many Americans, Canadians, etc. 

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Worth reading the tweetstorm:

https://twitter.com/KirkWJohnson/status/825830075278823424

Good read.  I agree, many of those people deserve a place in America.  I don't disagree with that, & believe that President Trump feels the same way.  The key is having a process where bad people aren't allowed admittance, those already vetted retain their status, & refugees that need our assistance are welcomed.  Like I said before....this initiative was rushed forward without much planning.  Basically, it was a mess.  The fine tuning has already started with the green card consideration (last night).  Let's see how this plays out once they work out all the kinks in the process.  I can certainly understand & sympathize how this was a shock to the system for many Americans, Canadians, etc.

I don't think there's any way to overstate that Trump's policies are not just guided but rather dictated to him by white nationalist Steve Bannon.  Bannon does not want any Muslims admitted into the U.S., no matter how deserving or in need of help, and his long game is to bring down the U.S. government as we know it and instigate a cultural and religious war.  This is the first step.  People and elected officials in the U.S. need to step up immediately and aggressively against this kind of action, because Bannon and his puppet Trump are leading their country and the world towards catastrophe.  This isn't conspiracy material, this is very real.

This is your true president, Steve Bannon:

https://twitter.com/JessikaJayne/status/825622046453424129

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

https://twitter.com/Green_Footballs/status/825918206128840709

 

[Kin]

The key is having a process where bad people aren't allowed admittance, those already vetted retain their status, & refugees that need our assistance are welcomed. 

There is no evidence that the systems already in place for that weren't working.

 

[Bates]

That comparable makes no sense??  He literally took a list that the previous administration had put conditions on for entering the US and kept that list of Countries and expanded the conditions by refusing those same Countries entry at all.  Same list, worse sanctions.  The previous administration saw a reason to put further scrutiny on these particular Countries and the resident idiot decided he's better that Obama and will just refuse them entry totally. 

I think you are taking my post to mean I support or even think the policy makes sense?  Neither is true I was just posting in response to folks who asked how Trump picked his Countries, he didn't,  he just used the previous list. 

No, what I'm saying is that the two policies are unrelated to each other so there is no "previous list".

To use an extreme example to highlight my point, let's say tomorrow Trump announces he's going to build golden statues of himself on the roof of the US embassies of every NATO member. If you or I or anyone else then asked "Why do that only in those countries?" then it would be kind of unsatisfactory to hear back "Trump didn't invent NATO, he just used the previous list of NATO countries".

Regardless of whether or not those 7 countries were grouped together under an existing, fairly non-inflammatory policy Trump still did select them for his new fairly unconnected super-inflammatory policy and he is still responsible for their grouping/selection and has to justify it independently of "Yeah but Obama grouped them for a different reason".

 

[bustaheims]

Is Ireland a terrorist nation? There's a load of terrorists here.

Never mind Ireland, once you factor in white supremacist groups like the KKK, all the neo-Nazis, the religious zealots who shoot up abortion clinics, etc., there are likely more people who should be considered terrorists within the US than there are in the 7 banned countries combined.

 

[Bates]

I'd be fairly confident that ISIS membership would be higher than the list you put forward and every member of that group is a threat to human safety while being a member of the groups you mentioned doesn't necessarily make them dangerous.  The plan is still dumb.

Is Ireland a terrorist nation? There's a load of terrorists here.

Never mind Ireland, once you factor in white supremacist groups like the KKK, all the neo-Nazis, the religious zealots who shoot up abortion clinics, etc., there are likely more people who should be considered terrorists within the US than there are in the 7 banned countries combined.

 

[bustaheims]

I'd be fairly confident that ISIS membership would be higher than the list you put forward and every member of that group is a threat to human safety while being a member of the groups you mentioned doesn't necessarily make them dangerous.  The plan is still dumb.

I disagree. Members of those groups have just as much potential to be a threat to human safety. The difference is that ISIS members are mobilized, and groups like the KKK, etc., aren't in the same way. Anyone with the kind of extremist beliefs that leads to you not valuing all human life equally is dangerous and a threat to human safety. I mean, you don't become a member of the KKK for the health benefits . . .

 

[Bates]

When was their last attack?  They aren't comparable to ISIS in any meaningful way except they have backwards beliefs.

I'd be fairly confident that ISIS membership would be higher than the list you put forward and every member of that group is a threat to human safety while being a member of the groups you mentioned doesn't necessarily make them dangerous.  The plan is still dumb.

I disagree. Members of those groups have just as much potential to be a threat to human safety. The difference is that ISIS members are mobilized, and groups like the KKK, etc., aren't in the same way. Anyone with the kind of extremist beliefs that leads to you not valuing all human life equally is dangerous and a threat to human safety. I mean, you don't become a member of the KKK for the health benefits . . .