Idiocracy

[OrangeBlack]

terrorist nations

Can you please clarify, what exactly are "terrorist nations"?

Sorry, I'll clarify.....didn't mean any offense.  What I meant were nations where a large number of terrorists reside.  It's already been stated that a few of these type of countries are conspicuous by their absence....we can all agree on that.

 

[AvroArrow]

terrorist nations

Can you please clarify, what exactly are "terrorist nations"?

What I meant were nations where a large number of terrorists reside.

And how, exactly, is this being quantified?

 

[Kin]

I used the example of Chicago because it was directly referenced in the TV report that I referred to.  It wasn't meant to be an Obama slap, nor a murder rate comparison to the entire country.  I used Chicago to illustrate the point where police are taking an indifferent approach to policing given the current racial climate & media spotlight on policing.

Right and I'm pretty sure what I wrote was refuting the idea that Chicago's murder rate is in any way connected to any particular policing strategy or approach and simply a by-product of economic conditions. Unless you want to argue that all of the cities above Chicago on that list are all policing in the exact same way(and, conversely, that Los Angeles which has a long and violent history of conflict between citizens and police has somehow solved it) it seems pretty clear that you're tying two unconnected things together

 

[OrangeBlack]

It's not really a ban, it's a temporary travel restriction for 4 months.  The idea is to make sure that refugees & immigrants that come into this country are properly vetted.  Certainly, it's not a perfect system....they're trying to figure it out as they go along.  Hopefully, this leads to a clean process that's acceptable to both sides.  It's not unreasonable to state that if you allow hundreds of thousands of people free entry into the US from both Mexico & the travel banned countries....it will lead to bad risks that will infiltrate those ranks.  Yes, 99% of the people that come in to the US are good people....vetting keeps out the other 1%.  Is it profiling....probably.
Is there a better way to do it?  It's very unfortunate that innocents at JFK right now are caught in the wide net that was cast.  I feel bad for them & their families.

It's causing issues far beyond its intentions. None of the 9/11 attackers were from listed countries, countries that Trump has dealings with are not part of the ban. Refugees are already strongly vetted without random additional restriction. Even well to do people like Oscar nominated director & British politician are banned. Likelihood of getting murdered by fellow American is far higher but very little support for a temporary ban on sale of firearms to properly vet purchasers.

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A multi Olympic gold winning medallist and Knighted British national can't get back to stay with his family

https://www.thestar.com/sports/amateur/2017/01/29/mo-farah-slams-us-travel-ban-trump-seems-to-have-made-me-an-alien.html

I don't see that he'll have any issues getting back into the US.  He's clearly a British citizen, not a Somali or dual citizen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro[/youtube]

Great find......awesome movie.  I didn't mean to come across like that....I was just trying to apply the rule of common sense in this scenario...he'll be fine.  I think what Mo Farah was trying to accomplish by going to the media was to lay the groundwork ...so that his travel back to the US is smooth & event free.  He's famous, he's a British Citizen, & he's made his case to the media...I'm sure every effort will be made to make sure his travel to the US isn't screwed up. 

 

[OrangeBlack]

I used the example of Chicago because it was directly referenced in the TV report that I referred to.  It wasn't meant to be an Obama slap, nor a murder rate comparison to the entire country.  I used Chicago to illustrate the point where police are taking an indifferent approach to policing given the current racial climate & media spotlight on policing.

Right and I'm pretty sure what I wrote was refuting the idea that Chicago's murder rate is in any way connected to any particular policing strategy or approach and simply a by-product of economic conditions. Unless you want to argue that all of the cities above Chicago on that list are all policing in the exact same way(and, conversely, that Los Angeles which has a long and violent history of conflict between citizens and police has somehow solved it) it seems pretty clear that you're tying two unconnected things together

Check this out, it's the point that I was trying to make:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/12/29/60-minutes-report-chicago-crime-up-police-response-down/
The most alarming find was that in the last year while Chicago?s crime rate has gone up, police activity has gone down, by 80 percent. Former Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy calls that ?horrific.?
Former Chicago police officer Brian Warner says police are holding back because of the increased scrutiny on ? and regulation of ? officers. He says officers are responding to 9-1-1 calls, but they are not aggressively patrolling and looking for law-breakers as they once did

Basically, the current state of policing in Chicago is the unfortunate end result of situations like what happened in Ferguson.

 

[OrangeBlack]

terrorist nations

Can you please clarify, what exactly are "terrorist nations"?

What I meant were nations where a large number of terrorists reside.

And how, exactly, is this being quantified?

You got me there.  One would think that there is some type of US intelligence that's been gathered to support this action, and/or there's some type of classified database that confirms named terrorists in these countries.

 

[Kin]

Basically, the current state of policing in Chicago is the unfortunate end result of situations like what happened in Ferguson.

I understand the point you're trying to make. What I'm saying is that it's not supported by evidence(and what you linked to doesn't have any beyond one ex-cop's opinion on why cops are behaving a certain way).

The shooting in Ferguson didn't invent racial tension between cops and the people in communities with high crime rates and the DOJ investigation proved that even if you want to ignore the mountains of historical evidence that point to that.

I don't know what the current state of policing is in Chicago and I'm guessing you don't either. I'm guessing there are some people in Chicago who might have a different opinion than one particular ex-police officer.

I do know however that "what happened in Ferguson" is not responsible for the city's murder rate like you implied.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

terrorist nations

Can you please clarify, what exactly are "terrorist nations"?

What I meant were nations where a large number of terrorists reside.

And how, exactly, is this being quantified?

You got me there.  One would think that there is some type of US intelligence that's been gathered to support this action, and/or there's some type of classified database that confirms named terrorists in these countries.

I'm sure the German people thought the Third Reich must have intelligence on all those pesky Jews back in the 1930's.

 

[OrangeBlack]

Basically, the current state of policing in Chicago is the unfortunate end result of situations like what happened in Ferguson.

I understand the point you're trying to make. What I'm saying is that it's not supported by evidence(and what you linked to doesn't have any beyond one ex-cop's opinion on why cops are behaving a certain way).

The shooting in Ferguson didn't invent racial tension between cops and the people in communities with high crime rates and the DOJ investigation proved that even if you want to ignore the mountains of historical evidence that point to that.

I don't know what the current state of policing is in Chicago and I'm guessing you don't either. I'm guessing there are some people in Chicago who might have a different opinion than one particular ex-police officer.

I do know however that "what happened in Ferguson" is not responsible for the city's murder rate like you implied.

It can be assumed though that if police activity has gone down by an incredible 80%, this has to be at least a contributing factor to the surge in Chicago crime.  Why have police attitudes changed....because of the media coverage re: events like Ferguson, etc.  Yes, this is one officer making these statements; but, you would have to assume a reputable show like 60 Minutes did their due diligence during their one week in Chicago.  I'm not saying Ferguson invented racial tension....I'm just using Ferguson as an example of why police have backed off, instead of continuing to be proactive.  This relaxed policing in turn creates racial tension in minority neighborhoods where cops now police reactively, no longer proactively. 

 

[OrangeBlack]

terrorist nations

Can you please clarify, what exactly are "terrorist nations"?

What I meant were nations where a large number of terrorists reside.

And how, exactly, is this being quantified?

You got me there.  One would think that there is some type of US intelligence that's been gathered to support this action, and/or there's some type of classified database that confirms named terrorists in these countries.

I'm sure the German people thought the Third Reich must have intelligence on all those pesky Jews back in the 1930's.

Hitler comparison is duly noted.  Let's see how this unfolds before we make that leap.  I'm open minded...I'll jump there with you if that's how this turns out.  We're only 8 days in.  I would think that we have enough checks & balances in place within our Senate, House, Supreme Court, etc. where a Hitler 2.0 could never happen.

 

[Kin]

Why have police attitudes changed....because of the media coverage re: events like Ferguson, etc.  Yes, this is one officer making these statements; but, you would have to assume a reputable show like 60 Minutes did their due diligence during their one week in Chicago.

I don't have to assume that, 60 Minutes' reputation has some pretty big blemishes on it: 60 Minutes Apologizes for Benghazi report.

Also, did you know Chicago's police force has 300 fewer detectives on it than it did 7 years ago? Think that might contribute to a rise in crime?

  I'm not saying Ferguson invented racial tension....I'm just using Ferguson as an example of why police have backed off, instead of continuing to be proactive.  This relaxed policing in turn creates racial tension in minority neighborhoods where cops now police reactively, no longer proactively.

I think if you asked people in those neighbourhoods if "pro-active" policing really helped them out you might get a different answer than what you're assuming. If, in fact, you listened to the people in Ferguson who were protesting they'd say that prior to the shooting there the Cops being "pro-active" generally amounted to hassling them and treated them unfairly and that's what created the tension. The shooting was simply the boiling point.

Again, the DOJ investigation pretty conclusively proved that there was some pretty ugly racism in the Ferguson police department well before the protests.

Seriously, you want a reputable news source?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/03/ferguson-as-a-criminal-conspiracy-against-its-black-residents-michael-brown-department-of-justice-report/386887/

 

[bustaheims]

I would think that we have enough checks & balances in place within our Senate, House, Supreme Court, etc. where a Hitler 2.0 could never happen.

So did the German political system.

 

[OrangeBlack]

Why have police attitudes changed....because of the media coverage re: events like Ferguson, etc.  Yes, this is one officer making these statements; but, you would have to assume a reputable show like 60 Minutes did their due diligence during their one week in Chicago.

I don't have to assume that, 60 Minutes' reputation has some pretty big blemishes on it: 60 Minutes Apologizes for Benghazi report.

Also, did you know Chicago's police force has 300 fewer detectives on it than it did 7 years ago? Think that might contribute to a rise in crime?

  I'm not saying Ferguson invented racial tension....I'm just using Ferguson as an example of why police have backed off, instead of continuing to be proactive.  This relaxed policing in turn creates racial tension in minority neighborhoods where cops now police reactively, no longer proactively.

I think if you asked people in those neighbourhoods if "pro-active" policing really helped them out you might get a different answer than what you're assuming. If, in fact, you listened to the people in Ferguson who were protesting they'd say that prior to the shooting there the Cops being "pro-active" generally amounted to hassling them and treated them unfairly and that's what created the tension. The shooting was simply the boiling point.

Again, the DOJ investigation pretty conclusively proved that there was some pretty ugly racism in the Ferguson police department well before the protests.

Seriously, you want a reputable news source?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/03/ferguson-as-a-criminal-conspiracy-against-its-black-residents-michael-brown-department-of-justice-report/386887/

My definition of proactive isn't "hassling"....it's meant to define the opposite of reactive, which is how I define the bare minimum policing that 60 Minutes was reporting.  Proactive policing to the majority of good cops...is just that, being proactive.  Looking for signs of crime before it happens or policing in such a way where you are trying to deter...not arrest after the fact.  Whether we agree or disagree, you have to admit that being a Police Officer in today's climate is more of a thankless, difficult job than ever before. 

 

[Bates]

Just wanted to point out that the Obama Administration picked the Countries, Trump just suspended their Visa program.  Its still dumb buts its not just on Trump.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

 

[Kin]

My definition of proactive isn't "hassling"

That's terrific but your definition isn't really the issue. It's how people in communities like Ferguson are treated by police and the idea that pre-shooting there wasn't tension being created by the day to day actions of the Ferguson PD is on its face false. Seriously, just listen to the people from there. That's how they felt. Hassled, unfairly targeted, disproportionately punished. The DOJ investigation lent those feelings real weight rooted in discovered evidence.

So the police response is to huffily say "Well, if you don't like how we were treating you badly before we just won't do our jobs at all"? And you think it's that pullback creating the tension?

The DOJ report makes it clear, the impression you have of the policing going on in these communities prior to the civil unrest did not exist.

Whether we agree or disagree, you have to admit that being a Police Officer in today's climate is more of a thankless, difficult job than ever before.

I honestly don't have to admit that because as I see it there is a large subset of people who are constantly thanking the police and refusing to ever admit any wrong doing on their part.

I'm not anti-police and I think they have a tremendously difficult job and occasionally get treated unfairly. I think a serious argument can be made that other elements of government services have devolved to the point that they're expected to shoulder the majority of the burden of, say, dealing with the mentally ill or homeless.

But what I see from people who "support the cops" isn't broad based support for investment in programs that would lessen their work load or even just pay them better, it's instead inventing the idea that pre-riots there aren't problems between the police and predominantly minority communities and justifying police shootings whether they're borderline or outright murder.

And here, it's looking at a dereliction of duty brought on by...hurt feelings about frank media coverage and cheering them for it.

 

[Bender]

Just wanted to point out that the Obama Administration picked the Countries, Trump just suspended their Visa program.  Its still dumb buts its not just on Trump.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

Implementation of a loose policy makes it not just Trump, but mostly Trump.

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[Bates]

No objection but people were asking why these Countries were chosen and implied it was about Trump business interest. 

Just wanted to point out that the Obama Administration picked the Countries, Trump just suspended their Visa program.  Its still dumb buts its not just on Trump.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

Implementation of a loose policy makes it not just Trump, but mostly Trump.

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[Kin]

No objection but people were asking why these Countries were chosen and implied it was about Trump business interest.

Sure, because Trump's standard message about the Obama administration and it's prevention of terrorism was that they were wrong, feckless and weak. Then he gets into office and bases a ridiculous policy on the basis that they were absolutely right about which nations needed the most scrutiny?

There's an obvious disconnect there and it's not ridiculous to connect those dots.

 

[Bates]

I take little of what Trump said as actual fact.  The only fact in this scenario is that the same group of Countries that were targeted by previous US Administration are still being targeted by current US Administration.  You can guess why all you want.

No objection but people were asking why these Countries were chosen and implied it was about Trump business interest.

Sure, because Trump's standard message about the Obama administration and it's prevention of terrorism was that they were wrong, feckless and weak. Then he gets into office and bases a ridiculous policy on the basis that they were absolutely right about which nations needed the most scrutiny?

There's an obvious disconnect there and it's not ridiculous to connect those dots.

 

[mr grieves]

Just wanted to point out that the Obama Administration picked the Countries, Trump just suspended their Visa program.  Its still dumb buts its not just on Trump.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

This is correct. And it was disheartening when the American left shrugged off that -- and all the other continuations, extensions, and insufficient reversals of Bush's horrible policies. At least now, there's a mass movement against this garbage.

Also, all those pointing out that none of ban-list countries sent any terrorists: please stop.

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