Kessel traded to Penguins

[Kin]

I suppose I'm saying two things. 
(1) The return feels low and I suspect waiting would have been better. I dunno.  Maybe, maybe not.  But just because Babcock and Shanahan want him gone, it doesn't mean you need to ship him out July 1st.  I bet they want to move Lupul too and yet he is still here.

Except it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the Leafs options for trading Kessel might have disappeared if they'd waited. By most reports, Pittsburgh was looking elsewhere to potentially address their need for a winger so waiting much longer may very well have left the Leafs with no trading partners instead of one.

Which explains Lupul too. The fact that he's on the team isn't a testament to the Leafs holding onto him in an attempt to increase his value, it's just an indication that nobody wants to trade for him at his present salary.

(2) Let's say theoretically July 1st happened to be his maximum value.  We still should have tried to work something out where we don't retain cap space, even if that means accepting less in terms of prospects or picks coming our way.  All these little cap hits add up.

The fact that they couldn't work out something like that doesn't mean they didn't try and, according to Dubas, they did try but not retaining salary was a non-starter in all of their trade discussions. The Leafs tried to make the trade where they took back Kunitz and Scuderi but that fell apart because of NTC's.

Again, it's looking more and more like the deal they made was the only one they could have.

 

[hobarth]

I suppose I'm saying two things. 
(1) The return feels low and I suspect waiting would have been better. I dunno.  Maybe, maybe not.  But just because Babcock and Shanahan want him gone, it doesn't mean you need to ship him out July 1st.  I bet they want to move Lupul too and yet he is still here.

Except it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the Leafs options for trading Kessel might have disappeared if they'd waited. By most reports, Pittsburgh was looking elsewhere to potentially address their need for a winger so waiting much longer may very well have left the Leafs with no trading partners instead of one.

Which explains Lupul too. The fact that he's on the team isn't a testament to the Leafs holding onto him in an attempt to increase his value, it's just an indication that nobody wants to trade for him at his present salary.

(2) Let's say theoretically July 1st happened to be his maximum value.  We still should have tried to work something out where we don't retain cap space, even if that means accepting less in terms of prospects or picks coming our way.  All these little cap hits add up.

The fact that they couldn't work out something like that doesn't mean they didn't try and, according to Dubas, they did try but not retaining salary was a non-starter in all of their trade discussions. The Leafs tried to make the trade where they took back Kunitz and Scuderi but that fell apart because of NTC's.

Again, it's looking more and more like the deal they made was the only one they could have.

Where did you find the Kunitz, Scuderi info, I'd heard it speculated but I'd also heard all kinds of other speculation, what's true who knows. We see seasoned GMs make lots of mistakes especially when acting hastily and I don't see any truly awesome moves from Shany that implies he's a GM. I do see teams that have a need for Kessel like Florida, Carolina, Minny, LA so the market should have been there. Shany took out his guns and started firing as soon as the season ended so naturally he would feel under the gun to make a significant roster move(s), good or bad. I would think if there wasn't a true trade partner you don't trade your most significant asset to the one and only team that will dance with you no matter the return.

 

[Kin]

Where did you find the Kunitz, Scuderi info, I'd heard it speculated but I'd also heard all kinds of other speculation, what's true who knows.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/07/01/phil-kessel-trade-gives-maple-leafs-picks-assets-for-rebuild.html

The deal was worked on at the draft. But given Kessel was due a $4-million bonus July 1, it was decided to hold off so deep-pocketed Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment could pay that. The Leafs were also forced to retain $1.2 million annually of Kessel?s salary when two players who were to come to the Leafs in Penguin salary dumps ? Chris Kunitz and Rob Scuderi ? declined to waive their no-trade clauses.

 

[hobarth]

Where did you find the Kunitz, Scuderi info, I'd heard it speculated but I'd also heard all kinds of other speculation, what's true who knows.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/07/01/phil-kessel-trade-gives-maple-leafs-picks-assets-for-rebuild.html

The deal was worked on at the draft. But given Kessel was due a $4-million bonus July 1, it was decided to hold off so deep-pocketed Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment could pay that. The Leafs were also forced to retain $1.2 million annually of Kessel?s salary when two players who were to come to the Leafs in Penguin salary dumps ? Chris Kunitz and Rob Scuderi ? declined to waive their no-trade clauses.

Now I believe you had called me naive to believe everything I've heard or read so my next question is how did that paper come by that info, there's a guy on the internet that comes up with a rumor a day all winter. I also believe that same paper not long before this was saying that TO wasn't prepared to take $s back on Kessel's contract, I don't know what's true and what isn't except I'm 100 % positive TO didn't get enough for Kessel.

You called me a rube for believing/accepting another article's assertion so I can only surmise that any info referred to by us less well informed needs to meet your seal of approval.

 

[Kin]

You called me a rube for believing/accepting another article's assertion so I can only surmise that any info referred to by us less well informed needs to meet your seal of approval.

What I said is that you shouldn't repeat something taken from a single anonymous source as fact. Especially not when it's something as vague and impossible to quantify as how well liked a player is within a dressing room.

This is a well known Leafs beat reporter, exactly the sort of person who would have sources within the organization, confirming in a major newspaper as fact something that's been talked about in many other places as per your acknowledgement of "speculation".

If you can't see the difference there, I genuinely can't help you any further.

 

[moon111]

Pretty sure the teams Kessel was willing to accept a trade to knew of the Penguins offer and had a chance to step in and make a better deal.  Therefore, the offer was probably the best compensation you could get.  So the only thing remaining is, do you want to keep Phil Kessel on the team?  Kessel knew he'd get paid whether he spent his summers training or eating hot dogs beside the pool.  He knew that back-checking wouldn't help get him his performance bonuses in his contract.  Phil Kessel plays for Phil Kessel.  There's no 'I' in team unless you look in the 'A' -hole.  Management/coaching that knows the difference between what it takes to be a winner or not and looked past the stats.  Kessel was absolutely the opposite of what they wanted in players and had to go. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think Colby Armstrong thought this was a criticism of Kessel that he was making?

 

[Puerto Rico Suave]

Except it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the Leafs options for trading Kessel might have disappeared if they'd waited. By most reports, Pittsburgh was looking elsewhere to potentially address their need for a winger so waiting much longer may very well have left the Leafs with no trading partners instead of one.

Which explains Lupul too. The fact that he's on the team isn't a testament to the Leafs holding onto him in an attempt to increase his value, it's just an indication that nobody wants to trade for him at his present salary.

It's just as reasonable to think that his value will go back up and waiting could have been the better option.  You may lose the Pittsburgh opportunity, or you may not and Pittsburgh may up the offer.  Or you deal with someone else next summer.  Unless you feel NHL GM's are immune to recency bias, this was a big time sell low.

As for Lupul, Michael responded in this thread that Shanny and Babcock wanted him gone so he had to go no matter what.  I definitely realize no one wants him.  At the same time I'm positive you could still trade him; you just have to get bent over and eat half his cap space or something like that.  Lupul is unlikely to bounce back very much, whereas Kessel, I'd say, has a very good shot at it.

[quote author=Nik the Trik]

The fact that they couldn't work out something like that doesn't mean they didn't try and, according to Dubas, they did try but not retaining salary was a non-starter in all of their trade discussions. The Leafs tried to make the trade where they took back Kunitz and Scuderi but that fell apart because of NTC's.

Again, it's looking more and more like the deal they made was the only one they could have.
[/quote]

If that is actually true and they couldn't just reduce the prospect package coming back, it just kicks back to the previous point.  Don't make the trade at all.  It just means PIT values that 1.25MM as well as I think a team should.

 

[Bender]

Except it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the Leafs options for trading Kessel might have disappeared if they'd waited. By most reports, Pittsburgh was looking elsewhere to potentially address their need for a winger so waiting much longer may very well have left the Leafs with no trading partners instead of one.

Which explains Lupul too. The fact that he's on the team isn't a testament to the Leafs holding onto him in an attempt to increase his value, it's just an indication that nobody wants to trade for him at his present salary.

It's just as reasonable to think that his value will go back up and waiting could have been the better option.  You may lose the Pittsburgh opportunity, or you may not and Pittsburgh may up the offer.  Or you deal with someone else next summer.  Unless you feel NHL GM's are immune to recency bias, this was a big time sell low.

As for Lupul, Michael responded in this thread that Shanny and Babcock wanted him gone so he had to go no matter what.  I definitely realize no one wants him.  At the same time I'm positive you could still trade him; you just have to get bent over and eat half his cap space or something like that.  Lupul is unlikely to bounce back very much, whereas Kessel, I'd say, has a very good shot at it.

[quote author=Nik the Trik]

The fact that they couldn't work out something like that doesn't mean they didn't try and, according to Dubas, they did try but not retaining salary was a non-starter in all of their trade discussions. The Leafs tried to make the trade where they took back Kunitz and Scuderi but that fell apart because of NTC's.

Again, it's looking more and more like the deal they made was the only one they could have.

If that is actually true and they couldn't just reduce the prospect package coming back, it just kicks back to the previous point.  Don't make the trade at all.  It just means PIT values that 1.25MM as well as I think a team should.
[/quote]

At the same time you have to understand that the buying team holds all the cards. Just because Kessel is a good player doesn't mean there's a market for him and his cap hit, plain and simple. Everyone is keenly aware of what Kessel can do at this point and having one bad year does not a bad player make.

Nobody pulled anything over anyone's eyes, and a good or a bad season for Kessel wouldn't do that. If he lit it up next year there's still only so many teams with the following attributes:

A) Need for a top scoring winger
B) Cap space
C) Risk appetite for length of term
D) Willing to give up something of value to acquire

I would bet you that that list is fairly small. Remember, we aren't talking about Jonathan Toews here. There's a whole load of risk analysis you can go through in regards to the trade and I really don't think it favours the Leafs.

Was the return underwhelming? Kind of. But this is what the market is, and to bet that the market will improve next year on a sniper who is going to be exiting his prime in a couple of years is pure speculation, and maybe it's a bet you would make, but I can completely understand the rationale to not make that bet.

 

[Chris]

Those of you still wringing your hands about the return on this deal need to accept a  simple fact - to Leaf management, the most important thing was to get Kessel out of the organization. We can debate the exact reasons - whether it was his supposed lack of training during the summer, unwillingness to change his game as requested by the coach, potential bad influence on young players, etc. But everything management said pointed to them wanting Kessel gone, and they accomplished that task.

I know there was a lot of back and forth about this issue late in the season, but the guy flat out quit on the team. You can't have your star and highest paid player (and yes, that matters) do that. I know some will argue "what do you expect when management says they're going to rebuild", well I expect someone like that to keep giving maximum effort.  Many here expected that, and it's pretty obvious management did as well.

Yes, the return wasn't as good as I had hoped. I wanted another high 1st round pick, preferably this year. But, under the circumstances...good enough.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

We can debate the exact reasons - whether it was his supposed lack of training during the summer, unwillingness to change his game as requested by the coach, potential bad influence on young players, etc.

Seems like a pretty fair and balanced list of reasons you put down there, and I'm sure they are backed up by facts.

 

[Chris]

We can debate the exact reasons - whether it was his supposed lack of training during the summer, unwillingness to change his game as requested by the coach, potential bad influence on young players, etc.

Seems like a pretty fair and balanced list of reasons you put down there, and I'm sure they are backed up by facts.

Do you have any fact-based reasons you'd like to contribute? I didn't think so.

 

[Deebo]

Couldn't you say the same thing about the original trade to get him?

To Leaf management, acquiring Kessel was the most important thing and they accomplished that task so stop wringing your hands about what they had to give up to get him

I don't actually beleive the above, but it sounds like a similar position.

 

[Bender]

Couldn't you say the same thing about the original trade to get him?

To Leaf management, acquiring Kessel was the most important thing and they accomplished that task so stop wringing your hands about what they had to give up to get him

I don't actually beleive the above, but it sounds like a similar position.

What they gave up were largely unknowns though, and no protection on the picks.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

We can debate the exact reasons - whether it was his supposed lack of training during the summer, unwillingness to change his game as requested by the coach, potential bad influence on young players, etc.

Seems like a pretty fair and balanced list of reasons you put down there, and I'm sure they are backed up by facts.

Do you have any fact-based reasons you'd like to contribute? I didn't think so.

I thought the fact-based reason was that the Leafs have made a collective decision to enter a full rebuild.  Phil Kessel doesn't fit into that plan, so they moved him.  And I'm going to assume they did it for the best available return, after weighing all available options (waiting until next year, etc.).

 

[Frank E]

Couldn't you say the same thing about the original trade to get him?

To Leaf management, acquiring Kessel was the most important thing and they accomplished that task so stop wringing your hands about what they had to give up to get him

I don't actually beleive the above, but it sounds like a similar position.

What they gave up were largely unknowns though, and no protection on the picks.

There's protection on the picks.

 

[Leaflifer]

I think Colby Armstrong thought this was a criticism of Kessel that he was making?

That's some heavy back-pedalling there, Colby.

 

[jdh1]

In 2 or 3 years we probably will be so glad that this trade was made.
My only question is,when Kessel gets bought out...can the Leafs buy out the 15% portion  that they are holding as well?

 

[Highlander]

Kessel is not going to be bought out, he may just be in the top three in scoring next year.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

We can debate the exact reasons - whether it was his supposed lack of training during the summer, unwillingness to change his game as requested by the coach, potential bad influence on young players, etc.

Seems like a pretty fair and balanced list of reasons you put down there, and I'm sure they are backed up by facts.

Do you have any fact-based reasons you'd like to contribute? I didn't think so.

We can debate the exact reasons Chris' post has troubles - he's wrong, he's intellectually inferior, he's drinking, etc.

See how I can just throw whatever out there and it doesn't have to be even 1% true, but I've directed the reader to think that way because of how it's been written.  There's tons of reasons Kessel could have been dealt that have nothing to do with what you wrote (for example, he didn't fit into a rebuilding team trying to stockpile picks/prospects) but by only listing very negative qualities that may or may not be true, you've directed it to be only about the negative reasons.  It's what guys like Simmons do - hint, dance around these things without outright saying they think so, or without outright providing evidence of it.  But still making the reader think it.

And obviously I don't believe any of the above!  I'm sure you're a great, smart dude.