Kris Versteeg

[Tigger]

I was commenting on the notion provided by cpd, didn't you say it had no bearing on what the Leafs did? I certainly didn't bring them into this.

When I read...

"Kris is an exciting young forward," Holmgren said in a release on the Flyers website.  "He's 24 years old and he'll fit in with our group of players here.  He's a quality forward that can play in a lot of different roles for your hockey team. He can move up and down our lineup. He can kill penalties. He can play on the power play.  We think he's a guy that over the last few years, particularly in Chicago, has really blossomed into a good forward and we think he's going to be a really good addition to our team."

...and four and half months later he's gone for less, I think it's fair to say the message gets a bit fuzzy from the Flyers perspective.

 

[Kin]

...and four and half months later he's gone for less, I think it's fair to say the message gets a bit fuzzy from the Flyers perspective.

Well, like I said, we'll actually have to wait and see how the Panthers actually finish before simply saying that they got less for him than they gave up. If the Panthers do falter than, as I said earlier, an argument could easily be made that Florida's 2nd and 3rd end up being the more valuable package than Philly's 1st and 3rd.

Anyways is it weird? I guess it would be if it weren't for the fact that Philadelphia more or less reworked their entire forward core. If Holmgren said "We think he'll fit in with our group of players here" and then radically changes that group of players then it would stand to reason that Versteeg might be less of a fit.

 

[Tigger]

then it would stand to reason that Versteeg might be less of a fit.

I don't see that being substantially different from what cpd said.

 

[Kin]

I don't see that being substantially different from what cpd said.

Hard not to. A player not fitting in with the players around him isn't a reflection on him, necessarily. Philly "not being thrilled" with him is a reflection on him and what he brought to the table.

And I'm still at a loss to the point being made exactly. cpd said Philly wasn't thrilled with him either. Even if that's true, what difference does it make?

 

[Tigger]

Even if that's true, what difference does it make?

It's not much more than speculation about a trend of teams bailing on a particular player, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other but it does offer some peculiar features that suggest Versteeg was deemed something along the lines of part of the problem or probably more accurately not part of the solution.

 

[Kin]

It's not much more than speculation about a trend of teams bailing on a particular player, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other but it does offer some peculiar features that suggest Versteeg was deemed something along the lines of part of the problem or probably more accurately not part of the solution.

I think that's kind of ridiculously lumping in three separate transactions together and attributing motivations to them without cause. A lot of times players get traded because they're valuable. Boston didn't bail on Phil Kessel, they saw an opportunity to better themselves by trading him.

Toronto got a pretty decent return for Versteeg. Philadelphia, it could be argued, got a better return for him. From Philadelphia's perspective, ignoring cap issues, trading Versteeg and signing Jagr could give them the opportunity to not only get the 2nd and 3rd from Versteeg but also whatever they could get for Jagr at the deadline if that comes up.

 

[Tigger]

I'm not lumping anything that's the general tone when I read about Versteeg and with the last two trades that's my notion as well. I don't think one can say that Philly was thrilled with him the way it went down and I think Burke, while using the asset wisely, bailed on him ...or 'acknowledged a mistake', however you want to say it.

What Philly did aside from the actual trade is as consequential as what the Leafs did, 4 and a half months later they signed Connolly and whatever he could bring down the road too.

 

[Kin]

I'm not lumping anything that's the general tone when I read about Versteeg and with the last two trades that's my notion as well. I don't think one can say that Philly was thrilled with him the way it went down and I think Burke, while using the asset wisely, bailed on him ...or 'acknowledged a mistake', however you want to say it.

All of which goes back to what I was saying about both teams being wrong about him doesn't make either team right.

Both teams decided to make changes but that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Versteeg, especially when you consider the situations the Leafs and Flyers were in.

What Philly did aside from the actual trade is as consequential as what the Leafs did, 4 and a half months later they signed Connolly and whatever he could bring down the road too.

Well that's just nonsense. The Leafs had no way of knowing Connolly would be on the market or interested in them. The Flyers made their decision on Versteeg with Jagr already under contract. They had a glut of good forwards and moved a valuable one.

 

[Tigger]

I'm not lumping anything that's the general tone when I read about Versteeg and with the last two trades that's my notion as well. I don't think one can say that Philly was thrilled with him the way it went down and I think Burke, while using the asset wisely, bailed on him ...or 'acknowledged a mistake', however you want to say it.

All of which goes back to what I was saying about both teams being wrong about him doesn't make either team right.

Both teams decided to make changes but that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Versteeg, especially when you consider the situations the Leafs and Flyers were in.

The Leafs and the Flyers seem like very different situations to me yet they came to similar conclusions which doesn't prove anything either, you want to disagree with notions/suppositions/opinions derived from that, it's all you baby.

Getting stuck on a perception of an overly pejorative connotation of the word 'bail' is not very useful and it seems we're degenerating into whether either team was right which isn't very interesting to me, it'll just keep going 'round as opinions tend to do.

What Philly did aside from the actual trade is as consequential as what the Leafs did, 4 and a half months later they signed Connolly and whatever he could bring down the road too.

Well that's just nonsense. The Leafs had no way of knowing Connolly would be on the market or interested in them. The Flyers made their decision on Versteeg with Jagr already under contract. They had a glut of good forwards and moved a valuable one.

Ugh, I said 'as consequential' I didn't say anything about a crystal ball, insert 'potential ufa' if it makes you feel better.

...and with that I've had enough, you use terms like ridiculous and nonsense like others breathe air, it's tiresome.

 

[Kin]

The Leafs and the Flyers seem like very different situations to me yet they came to similar conclusions which doesn't prove anything either, you want to disagree with notions/suppositions/opinions derived from that, it's all you baby.

I'm disagreeing with your notion that by virtue of trading him we can decide on what "conclusion" either team reached about him or that it was the same in both cases. It doesn't read like you have a terrifically solid understanding of the pretty simple fact that teams can trade a player for all manner of reasons.

Ugh, I said 'as consequential' I didn't say anything about a crystal ball, insert 'potential ufa' if it makes you feel better.

Which, again, is entirely different than something they did with regard to another player already on the roster.

...and with that I've had enough, you use terms like ridiculous and nonsense like others breathe air, it's tiresome.

Oh no. Now who'll put me to sleep while lecturing as to how all numbers are beautiful unicorns in their own right.

 

[Deebo]

Toronto traded Versteeg a few days after they traded for Lupul, I think that may have been a factor in the decision to trade Versteeg.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

I don't know..I followed philly's run a bit last year..in the playoffs..and I felt a lot of the changes that they did make to the team were due to playoff performance ...obviously my own feeling ..I haven't talked to their GM  ...but Versteeg had a piss poor playoffs..became somewhat invisible if not for the mistakes he was making

 

[Kin]

..but Versteeg had a piss poor playoffs..

I don't think that's true. He scored at a decent clip without a lot of ice time and played pretty good defense throughout. He wasn't a gigantic difference maker but he was solid throughout.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

..but Versteeg had a piss poor playoffs..

I don't think that's true. He scored at a decent clip without a lot of ice time and played pretty good defense throughout. He wasn't a gigantic difference maker but he was solid throughout.

I dunno how many minutes he was getting a game in chicago ...but 6 points ...1 goal for the flyers in their run...definitely nothing that you hang your hat on ....  he was a +1 ..i guess that's nice...

Anyway..i feel pretty safe in saying if Philly thought that Versteeg was going to play like he's playing this year..that they would have found some space for him..just as i believe that the leafs would have...so no..what philly did doesn't exonerate toronto ..but the more teams that look at a guy and say "not for us"  the less i tend to blame a team for not seeing his potential ...

Guess we'll see if he can keep this up over the season

 

[Bullfrog]

that's a little unfair to just automatically label every single player who has a god year in a contract year as it being related to that. 

He's currently over a point-per-game, but let's not get carried away now.

 

[Kin]

I dunno how many minutes he was getting a game in chicago ...but 6 points ...1 goal for the flyers in their run...definitely nothing that you hang your hat on ....  he was a +1 ..i guess that's nice...

6 points in 11 games from a guy getting third line ice time is, again, not bad. Add in that he was killing penalties and one of only three forwards on the team in the plus department and calling it a "piss poor" performance doesn't seem to add up at all.

Anyway..i feel pretty safe in saying if Philly thought that Versteeg was going to play like he's playing this year..that they would have found some space for him..just as i believe that the leafs would have...so no..what philly did doesn't exonerate toronto ..but the more teams that look at a guy and say "not for us"  the less i tend to blame a team for not seeing his potential ...

Again, two teams being wrong in the same way doesn't make them less wrong. Wrong by consensus is no better.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

I dunno how many minutes he was getting a game in chicago ...but 6 points ...1 goal for the flyers in their run...definitely nothing that you hang your hat on ....  he was a +1 ..i guess that's nice...

6 points in 11 games from a guy getting third line ice time is, again, not bad. Add in that he was killing penalties and one of only three forwards on the team in the plus department and calling it a "piss poor" performance doesn't seem to add up at all.

Anyway..i feel pretty safe in saying if Philly thought that Versteeg was going to play like he's playing this year..that they would have found some space for him..just as i believe that the leafs would have...so no..what philly did doesn't exonerate toronto ..but the more teams that look at a guy and say "not for us"  the less i tend to blame a team for not seeing his potential ...

Again, two teams being wrong in the same way doesn't make them less wrong. Wrong by consensus is no better.

Sure it does... you'd like to always be right of course...but in this case if one team passes on a guy and he does well ..it means your organization failed to see the talent ..failed to see what was "right" with this player ...the more organizations that are wrong right along with you means..that there isn't some kind of special failure that's linked only to your organization .....that perhaps it was just generally hard to see how this guy was going to be successful ... so yes..it's easy to argue that wrong is wrong .... but wrong alone in this case?  ..is worse..

 

[Kin]

Sure it does... you'd like to always be right of course...but in this case if one team passes on a guy and he does well ..it means your organization failed to see the talent ..failed to see what was "right" with this player ...the more organizations that are wrong right along with you means..that there isn't some kind of special failure that's linked only to your organization .....that perhaps it was just generally hard to see how this guy was going to be successful ... so yes..it's easy to argue that wrong is wrong .... but wrong alone in this case?  ..is worse..

I think I'd be more inclined to agree with you if it weren't for a few things. First and foremost that both clubs had outside factors influencing their decision to deal Versteeg and that we can't take too much away from just that decision. Secondly if this were a Steve Sullivan kind of situation where he'd passed through waivers you could claim a sort of consensus here but with just two teams all you have is a pair of bad answers.

And more critical to my original point, I think the Leafs were in a better position to play wait and see with Versteeg. The Flyers very well could be motivated by the fact that they thought they were ready to compete right away with Bryzgalov and Jagr and Versteeg not fitting in immediately carried more weight. I don't think either the Leafs or Flyers looked at Versteeg and said "This guy isn't any good" because that would have been insane. I think the Flyers may have said "This guy isn't the kind of player we need right now" and dealt him and there's some justification for that. If the Leafs said the same thing I'd have asked them where the fire was. 

 

[Bender]

"From my perspective, I think Kris, his best contributions would come on a better team," Burke admitted. "You look at what he contributed with Chicago, he wasn't having the same impact on our group."

Monday's deal was the second major transaction made by Toronto in the last week. Last Wednesday, the Leafs sent defenseman Francois Beauchemin to the Anaheim Ducks in exchange for forward Joffrey Lupul and college blueliner Jake Gardiner. Burke is confident Lupul can pick up the slack in Versteeg's absence.

"We think he can provide some of the offense that Kris has been providing," Burke said of Lupul, a three-time 20-goal scorer. "That allowed this deal to go forward. There's a bit of a sequence in there. We're happy with both trades. We traded two guys we didn't want to trade -- two guys that were good players and quality people in Francois Beauchemin and Kris Versteeg. But you want quality, you've got to give up quality.

"I think Kris Versteeg's a real good hockey player and a good guy," Burke added. "I think he's going to have an impact with the Philadelphia Flyers. We wish him well."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=552761

 

[Rebel_1812]

"From my perspective, I think Kris, his best contributions would come on a better team," Burke admitted. "You look at what he contributed with Chicago, he wasn't having the same impact on our group."

Monday's deal was the second major transaction made by Toronto in the last week. Last Wednesday, the Leafs sent defenseman Francois Beauchemin to the Anaheim Ducks in exchange for forward Joffrey Lupul and college blueliner Jake Gardiner. Burke is confident Lupul can pick up the slack in Versteeg's absence.

"We think he can provide some of the offense that Kris has been providing," Burke said of Lupul, a three-time 20-goal scorer. "That allowed this deal to go forward. There's a bit of a sequence in there. We're happy with both trades. We traded two guys we didn't want to trade -- two guys that were good players and quality people in Francois Beauchemin and Kris Versteeg. But you want quality, you've got to give up quality.

"I think Kris Versteeg's a real good hockey player and a good guy," Burke added. "I think he's going to have an impact with the Philadelphia Flyers. We wish him well."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=552761

considering the deal atlanta made with chicago, I feel our package was better and the player we got in return was less.