Kyle Dubas not returning as GM

[ZBBM]

Reading up on all this as I was on the road all day.  Quite the day.

As I read the Shanahan transcript, I have to say that a few things stick out:

"I didn?t expect that he was going to go out and put that to the public..."  To me this is the linchpin of his presser.  He said Dubas had expressed his familial concerns privately the day before.  He's a generation up from Dubas.  Guys like him don't air those kind of things at a press conference.  Dubas comes from a generation where (some) men no longer have qualms about sharing their emotions.  We saw it in the box at Tampa.  No older GM would ever have done that.  I think that Dubas's comments on Monday, plus those images from Tampa, were enough to push Shanny over the edge.

Another complicating factor: Dubas has an agent?  Maybe it's standard, but even so it's another layer of complexity (and weird, to me, that an employee could negotiate with his boss through a third party).

The lack of quick, immediate, one-on-one followup from Dubas to Shanny post-Monday also probably sealed Kyle's fate.

As for me, I liked Dubas a lot.  He was successful in many areas of the job.  He branded the team with a fun playstyle that delivered great value in the regular season ? something not to be underestimated.  But the ultimate yardstick, he failed at. 

The good thing is that now all possibilities are in play with a new management team, and, no doubt, new coaches.

 

[ZBBM]

I understand people are pissed in the heat of the moment, but it's just a GM change.  Happens all the time.

Like somebody said, the only reaction to really care about will come from the mouth of Auston Matthews.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

What has Dubas accomplished in Toronto? This team had tread water for 5 years, making it out of the first round by the skin of their teeth, exactly once. 

How many draft picks under his watch are on the team? 

Maybe it all became a little too lovey dovey let's all sit around and sing kumbaya. 

 

[LittleHockeyFan]

I finally developed some love for Jason Spezza when he played for the Leafs and then took the front office job after years of hating him purely because he played for Ottawa. And now we've lost him. I think I'm more upset about that than I am the loss of Dubas.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I understand people are pissed in the heat of the moment, but it's just a GM change.  Happens all the time.

Like somebody said, the only reaction to really care about will come from the mouth of Auston Matthews.

I don't have an issue with Dubas getting the boot. What stands out for me is Spezza resigning. Why would he do that? Pure speculation but for me it says he wasn't happy how they treated Kyle. Spezza is Mr. Leaf....maybe they're not related but it appears they are. Who's next? Wick? I think this just maybe the start of people leaving.
I liked Dubas and I think he's been the best GM we've had in a long long time. I wish him well in his next GM job because he's getting one and I wouldn't be surprised if it's this coming season.

 

[cw]

Sounds like Dubas basically engineered his own way out - made demands he knew weren?t going to met and would ultimately lead to his dismissal.

100000%

Strung the Leafs along since the trade deadline?  Then at the last minute demand more money?  Kinda bizarre. 

and then email Shanny on Thurs to say "I'm ok. I'll remain as GM."

Why would you do that if you want out?

Saying "I'm taking a year off to decompress for family reasons" is more appealing for someone to hire than someone who says "I'm not sure because of my family" and then at the last minute makes a whole bunch of demands for money and authority when he thinks he's got the team over a barrel - such that they fire him?

I'm sure someone will give Dubas another shot in the NHL. But if what Shanahan says is what went down, Dubas has damaged his credibility some as a prospective GM.

Because money and power talk. He didn't want to come back in the existing set up and I think after thinking it over he thought he could leverage his way into more because who else would be signing the contracts? Maybe that's what gets you back into it. Anecdotally I have a friend who asked for a raise he didn't think he'd receive at a company because he was thinking of leaving and they gave it to him because they viewed him as too important. Money and power can patch up a lot of holes.

When you go about it the way Dubas appears to have, more often than not, you wind up where Dubas is: looking for a job.

Nothing wrong with asking for more money and authority. But don't play along from the trade deadline until a couple of days ago maintaining a framework of a deal that seems ok and then suddenly demand substantially more at the last moment.

Dubas did that to someone who stuck his neck out to hire him. Someone who sent Lamoriello packing to get him his chance. Someone who backed him when he'd lost four playoff rounds up to the March deadline when Shanahan made his first offer. I would have done the same thing as Shanahan did. I might not have slept on it because the behavior would bother me so much after what I'd done for this person.

Dubas would know that Shanahan had already gone to the board and got approval for the framework of the deal Shanahan thought he had. He embarrassed Shanahan in front of the MLSE board.

I?m sorry but this implies that Shanahan has treated Dubas perfectly for 8 years and deserves all of his respect. We only know one side here and it is what Shanahan is saying.
Maybe Dubas wanted to trade one of the core 4 and Shanny said no, maybe he wanted to fire Keefe and Shanny said no.  I?m not saying this is true but to assume that Dubas has no right at all to act with anything but full respect for Shanny makes assumptions that we cannot know to be true.

It does not imply he treated Dubas perfectly. But it does imply, Shanahan was very supportive as Dubas would not have got the position and kept the position without Shanahan.

We know this:
Shanahan hired him
Shanahan dumped Lamoriello to give him his chance at GM.
Shanahan did not advocate he be fired for not winning a playoff round during his first four years.
Both Dubas and Shanahan told the same story about not offering Dubas a renewal last summer and both were ok with that publicly.
Shanahan/MLSE made Dubas some kind of an offer fairly recently which Dubas told us about at his press conference.
We know that Dubas did not accept that offer as he wanted to talk with his family who he claimed had had a tough year.
We know that Shanahan claims he terminated Dubas according to his press release and that he very likely had to have MLSE board approval to do so - which Shanahan told us he did.
We also know that there had to be some sort of falling out.

Shanahan claims he got an email from Dubas Thursday saying Dubas had decided that he wanted to continue as GM. I doubt Dubas would dispute an email he sent.

We also know this: both Dubas and Shanahan agree Dubas had been offered a contract to continue as GM as of Monday. As of Friday, Shanahan fired him. Shanahan did not appear as if he'd lost his mind. Something occurred between Monday and today to cause Shanahan to rescind his offer and fire Dubas immediately.

Those are the facts as we know them.

The only key thing we do have have verified factually is the counter offer. But Shanahan tried to turn down the temperature on money during his PC. But we know something happened to turn Shanahan off Dubas between Monday and today. Therefore, it is very likely that there is merit to what Shanahan had to say was the cause. Something happened and it wasn't Dubas quitting.

 

[Peter D.]

https://twitter.com/pierrevlebrun/status/1659677061462601729
Jeez

https://twitter.com/mikeystephens81/status/1659678463026921476
Louise

Oh good.  Nothing like screwing up a decent thing.  This franchise is a trainwreck.  I'm unbelievably pissed.

Don't win anything, I stick around.  Make aimless decisions I stick around.  Running into abject dysfunction with some of the best players in our franchise history.  It's like this organization doesn't want fans.  This shitshow honestly might be a breaking point for me with the team.  I was frustrated after the loss but I was still looking forward to seeing what they would pull off.  Right now I honestly don't give a rats behind what happens.  Burn it to the ground, salvage it.  Don't worry, we can charge 300 dollars for obstructed standing room seats. 

The fanbase deserves better than this sack of crap organization

I'm the complete opposite.  I would have kept Dubas to see this through, but now that he's gone, I'm excited to see what's ahead.  Haven't been a fan of this group, from management right on down to the players, so this will be a welcome change.  It's evident that things were rotten here, or at least there was some scheming amongst the powers that were, and I don't think the spotlight shines solely on Shanahan on that one.

 

[L K]

What has Dubas accomplished in Toronto? This team had tread water for 5 years, making it out of the first round by the skin of their teeth, exactly once. 

How many draft picks under his watch are on the team? 

Maybe it all became a little too lovey dovey let's all sit around and sing kumbaya. 

What has Shanahan accomplished in Toronto.  It's been 9 years.  He's about to go to his 3rd GM hire (4th total), very likely his fifth coach and he's been here from the get go.  This whole scenario stinks too to bottom

 

[ZBBM]

I finally developed some love for Jason Spezza when he played for the Leafs and then took the front office job after years of hating him purely because he played for Ottawa. And now we've lost him. I think I'm more upset about that than I am the loss of Dubas.

I like Jason too but he is just a first-year apprentice at this point.

 

[ZBBM]

I understand people are pissed in the heat of the moment, but it's just a GM change.  Happens all the time.

Like somebody said, the only reaction to really care about will come from the mouth of Auston Matthews.

I don't have an issue with Dubas getting the boot. What stands out for me is Spezza resigning. Why would he do that? Pure speculation but for me it says he wasn't happy how they treated Kyle. Spezza is Mr. Leaf....maybe they're not related but it appears they are. Who's next? Wick? I think this just maybe the start of people leaving.

Sure.  Dubas gave him his entry into management and was mentoring him.

Like Peter D, I am kind of excited to see what happens next.  But that's with the realization that things could go south, too.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/frank_seravalli/status/1659743935365799936

 

[azzurri63]

We'll have a new GM next season, almost certainly a new coach, and possibly see a member of the core 4 dealt. Times are changing. All cause the team didn't show up to game 3.

And rightfully so. Liked Kyle but mismanaged the core right from the start and unfortunately tried to fill in holes with other teams cast offs. Plus some deadline deals that wasted some picks which we have been thin on last few years. I understand that though gotta do what you think would put you over the top. Players are more to blame especially this year with the additions we got they should have had a better run. First change and hopefully more.

Careful what you wish for.  We've been down the road of regime changes in the past and they never work out.  If they bring in the polar opposite of Dubas you'll be trading skill for toughness, welcome back 80s Leafs.

What has worked in this era? A good regular season team. And?

I don't think anyone wants to go back to the 80s but something has to give at some point.

Agree with you 100% Bender. Skill? Where was the skill last round? Nowhere in sight. Time to move on.

 

[Bender]

Sounds like Dubas basically engineered his own way out - made demands he knew weren?t going to met and would ultimately lead to his dismissal.

100000%

Strung the Leafs along since the trade deadline?  Then at the last minute demand more money?  Kinda bizarre. 

and then email Shanny on Thurs to say "I'm ok. I'll remain as GM."

Why would you do that if you want out?

Saying "I'm taking a year off to decompress for family reasons" is more appealing for someone to hire than someone who says "I'm not sure because of my family" and then at the last minute makes a whole bunch of demands for money and authority when he thinks he's got the team over a barrel - such that they fire him?

I'm sure someone will give Dubas another shot in the NHL. But if what Shanahan says is what went down, Dubas has damaged his credibility some as a prospective GM.

Because money and power talk. He didn't want to come back in the existing set up and I think after thinking it over he thought he could leverage his way into more because who else would be signing the contracts? Maybe that's what gets you back into it. Anecdotally I have a friend who asked for a raise he didn't think he'd receive at a company because he was thinking of leaving and they gave it to him because they viewed him as too important. Money and power can patch up a lot of holes.

When you go about it the way Dubas appears to have, more often than not, you wind up where Dubas is: looking for a job.

Nothing wrong with asking for more money and authority. But don't play along from the trade deadline until a couple of days ago maintaining a framework of a deal that seems ok and then suddenly demand substantially more at the last moment.

Dubas did that to someone who stuck his neck out to hire him. Someone who sent Lamoriello packing to get him his chance. Someone who backed him when he'd lost four playoff rounds up to the March deadline when Shanahan made his first offer. I would have done the same thing as Shanahan did. I might not have slept on it because the behavior would bother me so much after what I'd done for this person.

Dubas would know that Shanahan had already gone to the board and got approval for the framework of the deal Shanahan thought he had. He embarrassed Shanahan in front of the MLSE board.

This is exactly the same thought process I think Shanny had. Obviously we are only get his side of the story, but it kind of feels like you got the keys to to one of the most prestigious brands in all of sport in your early 30s and for a few reasons, we feel like you haven't appreciated how and who got you here. I think playing hardball like that near the end was foolish, but there's a fair chance the Leafs are worse off. This is such a frustrating way for things to unfold for everyone.

 

[Bender]

What has Dubas accomplished in Toronto? This team had tread water for 5 years, making it out of the first round by the skin of their teeth, exactly once. 

How many draft picks under his watch are on the team? 

Maybe it all became a little too lovey dovey let's all sit around and sing kumbaya. 

What has Shanahan accomplished in Toronto.  It's been 9 years.  He's about to go to his 3rd GM hire (4th total), very likely his fifth coach and he's been here from the get go.  This whole scenario stinks too to bottom

This is his last bullet. The other GMs were either tearing down or building before Kyle, not contending. Babcock I think we all thought was the best hire at the time, but Shanny deserves a ton of blame for costing the Leafs a lot of money in the end. Obbiously his next GM would fire Babcock if he wasnt performing and he didnt, but then again Keefe didnt really either. Shanny should be canned if this gets screwed up in any way.

 

[4EVRLEAFAN]

Now that I've had time to digest this and watched some of the talking heads on TV and youtube I can only say, regardless of how you feel about Dubas it was a crappy way to fire him. Good luck to our new GM whoever it is.

 

[mr grieves]

Sounds like Dubas basically engineered his own way out - made demands he knew weren?t going to met and would ultimately lead to his dismissal.

100000%

Strung the Leafs along since the trade deadline?  Then at the last minute demand more money?  Kinda bizarre. 

and then email Shanny on Thurs to say "I'm ok. I'll remain as GM."

Why would you do that if you want out?

Saying "I'm taking a year off to decompress for family reasons" is more appealing for someone to hire than someone who says "I'm not sure because of my family" and then at the last minute makes a whole bunch of demands for money and authority when he thinks he's got the team over a barrel - such that they fire him?

I'm sure someone will give Dubas another shot in the NHL. But if what Shanahan says is what went down, Dubas has damaged his credibility some as a prospective GM.

Because money and power talk. He didn't want to come back in the existing set up and I think after thinking it over he thought he could leverage his way into more because who else would be signing the contracts? Maybe that's what gets you back into it. Anecdotally I have a friend who asked for a raise he didn't think he'd receive at a company because he was thinking of leaving and they gave it to him because they viewed him as too important. Money and power can patch up a lot of holes.

When you go about it the way Dubas appears to have, more often than not, you wind up where Dubas is: looking for a job.

Nothing wrong with asking for more money and authority. But don't play along from the trade deadline until a couple of days ago maintaining a framework of a deal that seems ok and then suddenly demand substantially more at the last moment.

Dubas did that to someone who stuck his neck out to hire him. Someone who sent Lamoriello packing to get him his chance. Someone who backed him when he'd lost four playoff rounds up to the March deadline when Shanahan made his first offer. I would have done the same thing as Shanahan did. I might not have slept on it because the behavior would bother me so much after what I'd done for this person.

Dubas would know that Shanahan had already gone to the board and got approval for the framework of the deal Shanahan thought he had. He embarrassed Shanahan in front of the MLSE board.

This is exactly the same thought process I think Shanny had. Obviously we are only get his side of the story, but it kind of feels like you got the keys to to one of the most prestigious brands in all of sport in your early 30s and for a few reasons, we feel like you haven't appreciated how and who got you here. I think playing hardball like that near the end was foolish, but there's a fair chance the Leafs are worse off. This is such a frustrating way for things to unfold for everyone.

It was foolish insofar as he?s out of a job, yes. But if, over the next two months, the Leafs slide into chaos and Matthews doesn?t sign ? which seems a very real possibility ? then the biggest fool here is Shanahan and ownership. If things go that way, it?d mean that, yes, Dubas did have his superiors over the barrel and they misunderstood the dynamic when they balked.

I?m hoping Shanahan put more thought into life after Dubas than was suggested in his press conference and that the team is fine. That?s also a very real possibility.

We shall see!

 

[herman]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

 

[Bill_Berg]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

Easy to say advance further in the playoffs. No trade can assure that. I believe the part that Shanahan blocked trades, but whether they were trades that would have worked out well or not, pffft, who knows.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

I don't know if it's common practice or not, the way the Leafs operated with Dubas and how they would with a new GM regarding autonomy, but if it's not the norm, wtf!