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Kyle Dubas not returning as GM

L K said:
mr grieves said:
L K said:
herman said:
https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I?d want to know what moves we?re talking about here. Foligno over Hall? McCabe over Orlov? Murray instead of a cheaper tandem? There aren?t many things that would?ve really changed their chances in the playoffs outside of moving one of the core, and I doubt Dubas was pretending that he was as committed to them as he was until 2 weeks ago.

The thing is it could be moves that we just don't know about.  We know the trades that actually happened but there can be dozens of trades that start to be discussed but fall through, or free agents that get discussed but don't get to a formal contract offer.

Unless we get a tell all interview years from now I doubt we get any of that detail.  I also don't expect to see Dubas really leaking that stuff at this point with any level of detail.  After watching Shanahan's press conference, I'm less convinced that he wouldn't throw out details but I don't expect that either.

I think the Amazon documentary showed a bit of that window into the Foligno trade and getting permission to make a move although who knows what else was done.  I just don't like the idea of a hamstrung GM and I feel like we are about to go back to an old retread GM for the sake of "experience"

At the same time what had Kyle really done to show he was so much better than everyone else in the results column? I'm not saying we should go back to the dinosaur era but I think even an idiot like JFJ could take the core 4 and lose in the first round every year. I think we can find a happy medium with someone has experience and who isn't afraid to make drastic change when needed, and not just sound dejected in a press conference once he realized after years and years that his grand plan had failed (literally referencing Florida directly) when he should've pivoted sooner.
 
Bender said:
L K said:
mr grieves said:
L K said:
herman said:
https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I?d want to know what moves we?re talking about here. Foligno over Hall? McCabe over Orlov? Murray instead of a cheaper tandem? There aren?t many things that would?ve really changed their chances in the playoffs outside of moving one of the core, and I doubt Dubas was pretending that he was as committed to them as he was until 2 weeks ago.

The thing is it could be moves that we just don't know about.  We know the trades that actually happened but there can be dozens of trades that start to be discussed but fall through, or free agents that get discussed but don't get to a formal contract offer.

Unless we get a tell all interview years from now I doubt we get any of that detail.  I also don't expect to see Dubas really leaking that stuff at this point with any level of detail.  After watching Shanahan's press conference, I'm less convinced that he wouldn't throw out details but I don't expect that either.

I think the Amazon documentary showed a bit of that window into the Foligno trade and getting permission to make a move although who knows what else was done.  I just don't like the idea of a hamstrung GM and I feel like we are about to go back to an old retread GM for the sake of "experience"

At the same time what had Kyle really done to show he was so much better than everyone else in the results column? I'm not saying we should go back to the dinosaur era but I think even an idiot like JFJ could take the core 4 and lose in the first round every year. I think we can find a happy medium with someone has experience and who isn't afraid to make drastic change when needed, and not just sound dejected in a press conference once he realized after years and years that his grand plan had failed (literally referencing Florida directly) when he should've pivoted sooner.

I guess, but Florida was Pittsburgh not losing to a Chicago team trying to get Bedard away from not even getting a chance in the playoffs.  I'm not sure that the Tkachuck deal is necessarily the move that proves what they did worked although I certainly would agree that they ended up getting the best player in the deal.

Also while the lack of playoff success should be a knock on Dubas, I don't think a JFJ style GM would have been able to work around the cap restraints to make things work.  So I do think that Dubas putting together consistent regular season elite rosters hasn't just been a byproduct of benefitting from having four expensive forwards.

Thinking back on past moves that would be considered a star player being traded for something else

PK Subban for Shea Weber.  Certainly seemed like a good deal for the Habs in the end, not as good for the Predators.

Thornton getting traded from Boston for Sturm, Primeau, Stuart.  That was not a good trade for Boston although worked out pretty well for San Jose.

Clark for Sundin.  Long run it worked out for the Leafs but they had two first round eliminations in the first two years with Mats and it wasn't until his 5th year with the team that they had a deep run.

Obviously Huberdeau for Tkachuck is notable here but it's also notable that one team missed the playoffs and the other team almost missed the playoffs before going on a deep run.

Change probably needs to happen here because staying the course hasn't worked but this just seems like disorganization at this point and that generally isn't when you make the best decisions.  Particularly with short term deadlines.

Pridham is handling things right now.  New GM comes in and kicks him out or keeps him.  Who knows.  Pridham isn't going to get the ok to trade Matthews before a new GM is hired so any negotiating is going to be superficial at best and can all be scrapped the second the new GM comes into play.  I don't like how things played out, but I think you either trusted Dubas to do the job or didn't.  Not giving your GM autonomy after 5 years on the job just seems asinine (money aside).
 
Bender said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

I agree, but already has meaning Dubas? It'll be hard to see a power struggle like this if Lou was in charge. I think the team needs an experienced GM who they feel like they don't have to watch so closely.

Which reads to me like, Shanahan kept the guy that wasn?t a threat to him, until he became one.
 
herman said:
Bender said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

I agree, but already has meaning Dubas? It'll be hard to see a power struggle like this if Lou was in charge. I think the team needs an experienced GM who they feel like they don't have to watch so closely.

Which reads to me like, Shanahan kept the guy that wasn?t a threat to him, until he became one.

Agreed.
 
Bender said:
It reads as a super weird hypothetical that moves Shanny nixed would've made the team better but the moves Shanny approved or suggested made the team worse.

I don't love that there seems to have been a history of meddling on Shanny's end but we definitely shouldn't go back to the good moves = Dubas and not good moves = someone else mentality until actual reporting on certain decisions come out. 
 
RedLeaf said:
herman said:
Bender said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

I agree, but already has meaning Dubas? It'll be hard to see a power struggle like this if Lou was in charge. I think the team needs an experienced GM who they feel like they don't have to watch so closely.

Which reads to me like, Shanahan kept the guy that wasn?t a threat to him, until he became one.

Agreed.
x2
 
herman said:
Bender said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

I agree, but already has meaning Dubas? It'll be hard to see a power struggle like this if Lou was in charge. I think the team needs an experienced GM who they feel like they don't have to watch so closely.

Which reads to me like, Shanahan kept the guy that wasn?t a threat to him, until he became one.

I really don't know if I buy that entirely. All Dubas had to do was hang on a bit longer and do more to ingratiate himself to ownership instead of trying to force this at the 11th hour. I have a hard time believing Shanahan would go out of his way to screw over Dubas and try to take credit for good moves if the team had more playoff success.

Ultimately why would you try to strong arm your way into the GM and President role with what Dubas accomplished by blaming Shanny for where they are? The issue was never the supporting cast, it was the extent of which the core 4 took of the cap and the limited funds and throwing away of draft capital and a spotty drafting record thats causing bigger problems. I dont for a second think it was Shanahans idea to not entertain or execute trades for the core 4. Icarus flew too close to the sun imo.
 
https://twitter.com/pierrevlebrun/status/1660024883848310786

Interesting that the reported candidates, or at least potential candidates for the Leafs and Pens gigs couldn't be any more different.
 
Man, I really would have loved to have seen what a full-autonomous Dubas squad could have looked like. Too bad. Anyway, I just hope the next GM doesn't get sucked into the frat-boy, old-guard, chest-pounding, self-proclaimed alpha bullpoop rhetoric that much of the rabid fan base seems to eat up so much. And I thought I was somewhat apathetic this season.. :(
 
Saw in one of the many articles about this shitshow that Quenniville would be keen on the Leafs job.

If that happens I?m out for good.
 
Arn said:
Saw in one of the many articles about this shitshow that Quenniville would be keen on the Leafs job.

If that happens I?m out for good.

Yeah, that would be tough to get behind.
 
Arn said:
Saw in one of the many articles about this shitshow that Quenniville would be keen on the Leafs job.

If that happens I?m out for good.

I imagine Quenneville would be pretty keen for any job at this point.
 
I feel like people are putting a lot of faith into the type of speculation that comes out whenever a GM is dismissed in an atypical fashion. I?m not saying they?re definitely not true, but they really need to be taken with a heaping bowl of salt instead of being accepted as the reality.
 
https://twitter.com/dimfilipovic/status/1660105067641589760
Claude and Brendan Lemieux for GM/AGM
 
It is a little suspicious that the notion of presidency meddling occurred is coming out after the fact.  The Toronto media are always looking for something, and if there was a rift between Shanahan and Dubas as has been speculated the last couple of years, you would think something like that would have been leaked to the media well before these past few days (likely to Mirtle who seemingly Dubas has in his back pocket). 

The more I think of it, the more it seems like Dubas was scheming his way within the team.  His outrageous demands from the other day kind of telling.  And if indeed that is being so, I'm glad Shanahan punted his ass.
 
Two columns on MLHS are pushing back on the Shanahan Is Evil storyline.  Granted, those guys have been calling for Keefe's head for awhile, and since Keefe is Dubas's hand-picked guy, then you might expect them to be pro-Shanny in this one, though they are careful to not absolve him of all blame.

This is all very soap-opera but functionally it's the same as a "clean" decision to move on from Dubas/Keefe given their lack of playoff success, which really wouldn't be a very controversial move.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
This is all very soap-opera but functionally it's the same as a "clean" decision to move on from Dubas/Keefe given their lack of playoff success, which really wouldn't be a very controversial move.

I agree that it should be much simpler than the narrative that?s being spun up around it. I think what makes it not so simple is the timing ? not of the last week, but of the GM?s contract status and that of three key stars.

If, even after disappointing post seasons, Dubas was in the best position to re-sign Matthews and get a good deal for Marner before his NMC kicks in, and Matthews walks or Marner?s dictating trae terms, then it?s a disaster for the franchise.
 
mr grieves said:
If, even after disappointing post seasons, Dubas was in the best position to re-sign Matthews and get a good deal for Marner before his NMC kicks in, and Matthews walks or Marner?s dictating trae terms, then it?s a disaster for the franchise.

That's where I keep coming back to. It's a near certainty that guys like Spezza were popular guys to have around. Whatever gains you might think might be made by bringing in a new GM, it seems really unlikely that it will outweigh throwing a hand grenade into the front office when you're trying to convince guys to come back at reasonable rates.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
https://twitter.com/pierrevlebrun/status/1660024883848310786

Interesting that the reported candidates, or at least potential candidates for the Leafs and Pens gigs couldn't be any more different.

I mean, the Pens did have Burke and Hextall so I definitely get it.
 

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