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Leafs Acquired Jonathan Bernier

"I think between now and July 5 you'll probably see a couple more moves from us," Nonis said, noting the open hole on the roster with the departure of Frattin. "We're going to work hard to do that anyway between now and then."

TSN

And Dregger has mentioned this on twitter

"Some rumblings Phaneuf may be in play. Nonis says he will trade just about anyone, but says no one has called on the captain...yet."

So more trades are probably coming therefore this trade probably won't hinder the Leafs ability to make trades.
We'll trade other assets to get other players.

I like this trade. Bill Ranford likes the kid...so im in. On the few videos I was able to see I like that he's tall (able to see above opponents) tracks the puck like a machine, makes great second and third efforts...looks hungry for the puck.
 
Frank E said:
But they do have limited assets, in terms of good roster players on cheap RFA contracts.

It really is an either or, given the scarcity of these assets.

No, because as limited as the assets are imaginary trades where the Leafs package three lower-tier assets for  all-stars are even more so which means they really can do both.
 
I can't help but think that management has less faith in Reimer's health than they have in his ability with this trade.  Certainly that's how I feel about him.  If that's their feeling about him with their medical insight and assessments, certainly having a very competent alternative to him with significant upside is a good investment.  And when I look at the trade particularly from that perspective, I'm okay with it now.
 
Jolly good show chaps said:
Sorry for the slight change in subject chaps but surely having given up Frattin in this deal we should look to keep MacArthur for another year or sign him for longer and cash in at the trade deadline.

This was one thing I thought of as well.  However, I suspect MacArthur wants more than Nonis is willing to give, and he might harbour some ill feelings towards the coach for being benched (assuming there wasn't an injury related to his being kept out of the lineup).

Or, perhaps, Nonis is after something else via trade or free agency (Clarkson, Clowe, etc).

The good news is, we have 3 legit top-6 wingers, and I feel like Kulemin could adequately round that out if we weren't able to get a 4th.  Then we just need 3rd liners (on the forwards side), which should be easier to acquire (in theory).
 
Nik the Trik said:
Frank E said:
But they do have limited assets, in terms of good roster players on cheap RFA contracts.

It really is an either or, given the scarcity of these assets.

No, because as limited as the assets are imaginary trades where the Leafs package three lower-tier assets for  all-stars are even more so which means they really can do both.

You keep saying this, and the rhetoric's becoming more hyperbolic as you go. I do take the point that evaluating a trade that did happen in light of  imaginary ones that didn't isn't a fair way to evaluate a trade. But that's mostly true when folks are complaining those resources weren't combined with Kulimen and our first to get Getzlaf or something... "all stars." But I don't know think anyone was suggesting Frattin, Scrivens, and a 2nd get you  an all star. Only that they're tradable assets that can get you some sort of asset in return, and maybe goal isn't the area of greatest need within the organization -- or even in the top 3.

What the Leaf's gave up here won't get you a 1C, so that's out. The depth forwards who can play more than six face-punching minutes can be found cheaply on the UFA market if you've got good pro scouts (and I'll take McClement's signing to mean we might). A solid top 4 defenseman, which I think is the greatest need going into next season, can be found on the UFA market -- but it'll consume salary and have a term longer than might be considered good cap management.

If that's so, then bundling your cheap, moderately appealing assets to acquire something those assets do tend to get -- decent top-4 options on not-terrible contracts is not unprecedented return, I don't think -- might have been a better use of Frattin, Scrivens, and a second-rounder.

That such a deal wasn't made is not evidence that such a deal wasn't out there. That the deal remains 'imaginary' only means that it didn't come together, perhaps because it wasn't even pursued. And, given the news that Nonis was after Bernier since his second week on the job, I think there is some evidence for that.

And that's all we who doubt the deal because of how Nonis is spending assets and prioritizing team needs need show. 
 
mr grieves said:
A solid top 4 defenseman, which I think is the greatest need going into next season, can be found on the UFA market -- but it'll consume salary and have a term longer than might be considered good cap management.

If that's so, then bundling your cheap, moderately appealing assets to acquire something those assets do tend to get -- decent top-4 options on not-terrible contracts is not unprecedented return, I don't think -- might have been a better use of Frattin, Scrivens, and a second-rounder.

That such a deal wasn't made is not evidence that such a deal wasn't out there. That the deal remains 'imaginary' only means that it didn't come together, perhaps because it wasn't even pursued. And, given the news that Nonis was after Bernier since his second week on the job, I think there is some evidence for that.

And that's all we who doubt the deal because of how Nonis is spending assets and prioritizing team needs need show.

The mistake, though, that you're still making is the same one that people made when they looked at the Colton Orr signing and concluded that Nonis thought signing Orr was more important than re-signing Kessel, in fact that it was his top priority, simply by virtue of the fact that it happened first. But as I've said recently, although I'm really surprised I have to, things don't really work in that strict a linear sense when it comes to off-season decision making. Not only because Nonis is a capable guy with a large staff who can pursue multiple things at once that play out at their own speed but just because of the nature of the off-season and how it's structured. Some deals are available before the draft, some during and some after.

Unlike you I can't speak for anybody other than myself on this deal but for myself, and I suspect a lot of the people who don't share your concerns would agree, is that Nonis doesn't get to dictate how things play out with other teams or players he has to sign so the order in which things get done is less a reflection on his priorities and more a reflection on circumstances beyond his control . I'm sure you'd agree for instance that, provided we assume that Nonis felt that improving the goaltending was an important part of his off-season plan, that to not make this move for Bernier when it was available because he hadn't already addressed the defense would be kind of tunnel-visioned. A good GM, I think, is one who leaps at the opportunity to improve the club significantly even if it's maybe not according to a strict list of the team's hierarchical needs.

Right? I mean let's say, again bear with me for the sake of argument, that Nonis wants to address the defense via free agency. Let's also assume, and I know this is an area you tend to be skeptical but give me some room, let's even assume there's a player he likes that he's targeted that he believes he can sign to a contract that isn't a gross inflation of his value. Let's pretend that Nonis, who's a smart guy, is fully aware of the options available to him and thinks that this would be the best possible way to improve whatever deficiencies there are on the blue line.

Well, the nature of the beast in that scenario is that no matter what the value Nonis places on that defense, no matter where it ranks in terms of relative import to the goaltending situation is that he can't get it done for a couple weeks. The Bernier trade doesn't reflect on that.

Ah, but of course, you're not one for that regardless because you think that rather than test the waters of free agency where the best laid plans of Gillis and Men are often led astray the Leafs should have rather used the assets packaged for Bernier on a defenseman who comes at a very reasonable price and is a good addition to the top 4. Well, I'm sorry for maybe seeming obstinate and maybe even a little frustrated but that really is something that I think you have to let play out before you criticize it for not being done. Not only do I think that you're severely underrating what guys like that do get dealt for but even if you're not I do think that you can't just assume that one's available because Nonis might want one to be. If Ryan Mcdonagh gets dealt tomorrow for a second round pick, Ben Scrivens-lite and some team's Matt Frattin level roster player, yeah, give Nonis crap for not being on it but until that happens? I think you have to assume that he's trying to improve his team in any way possible.

And then to take it back to the specific comment you're posting on, which wasn't meant to be all that serious, even if that McDonagh or comparable trade is out there? The Leafs still have the assets to do it. If someone's going for cheap? The Leafs can be in on it. So, no, I still can't get to a point where the Bernier trade plausibly means either that A) Nonis doesn't want to improve the team the way you might want him to or B) that if he does, it ties his hands in any way.
 
I always compare Reimer to a piece of plywood.  He's great at blocking shots, but they bounce out all the time.  And give an opposing forward a breakaway or shootout, and he can't out play them.  Think the Leafs are hoping Jonathan Bernier will be more rounded and win the #1 spot.
As for Frattin, think players like him don't work with Randy Carlyle.  A winning team is not about the individual.  You play within the system or get out.  Frattin is gone.  Will Grabs be next?
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Will Bernier pan out, is the question.  To hear Ranford tell it, the guy is Vezina material.  I'd take that with several grains of salt.

I also think Frattin could flourish in LA.  How he was used by RC was  bit of a puzzler (like so many of his lineup decisions).  Going 0 for 21 to end the season sure doesn't help me make my point, but then again (rather like Grabs) he wasn't put in a position to really play to his offensive strengths.  Lombardi, at any rate, apparently wanted him more than Matt Read.

So, for people to take the word of an actual goalie coach they should do so quite hesitantly but they should take your word,a fan, that Frattin is going to flourish? I see. Do you see anything else in that crystal ball?

Well, now that you've asked so cogently, I'm afraid see a future with more and more illiteracy.  You know, with more people who cannot even grasp the simple word "could."  It's going to be brutal.

Despite your need to be an ass, the point remains.

Ranford has said that he thinks Bernier could be a "number one who will have to fight for his starts with James Reimer"(not reading that Ranford said he'd be a Vezina candidate).

And I apologize, but I take his statements with a few more grains of salt than those of a fan on an internet messageboard.

Oh and if you're going to accuse someone of being illiterate, you may want to go back and read your reply to me. I believe there may be a word or two missing.

Don't be so touchy.  You're the one who jumped all over my innocuous post with a clich?d attempt at sarcasm.  And let's not confuse illiteracy with my inability to type.

As for the bolded ... well, I guess you agree with me then??

Not being touchy champ, just feel you're coming off quite arrogant.

As for the illiteracy part, if you're going to jump on me for the 'could' in your statement you may want to look at how you read Ranford's comments. He certainly didn't claim the guy was a Vezina candidate.

And if you feel that Ranford's assessment of talent holds a lot more water than your's, well sure, I agree with you.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Will Bernier pan out, is the question.  To hear Ranford tell it, the guy is Vezina material.  I'd take that with several grains of salt.

I also think Frattin could flourish in LA.  How he was used by RC was  bit of a puzzler (like so many of his lineup decisions).  Going 0 for 21 to end the season sure doesn't help me make my point, but then again (rather like Grabs) he wasn't put in a position to really play to his offensive strengths.  Lombardi, at any rate, apparently wanted him more than Matt Read.

So, for people to take the word of an actual goalie coach they should do so quite hesitantly but they should take your word,a fan, that Frattin is going to flourish? I see. Do you see anything else in that crystal ball?

Well, now that you've asked so cogently, I'm afraid see a future with more and more illiteracy.  You know, with more people who cannot even grasp the simple word "could."  It's going to be brutal.

Despite your need to be an ass, the point remains.

Ranford has said that he thinks Bernier could be a "number one who will have to fight for his starts with James Reimer"(not reading that Ranford said he'd be a Vezina candidate).

And I apologize, but I take his statements with a few more grains of salt than those of a fan on an internet messageboard.

Oh and if you're going to accuse someone of being illiterate, you may want to go back and read your reply to me. I believe there may be a word or two missing.

Don't be so touchy.  You're the one who jumped all over my innocuous post with a clich?d attempt at sarcasm.  And let's not confuse illiteracy with my inability to type.

As for the bolded ... well, I guess you agree with me then??

Not being touchy champ, just feel you're coming off quite arrogant.

As for the illiteracy part, if you're going to jump on me for the 'could' in your statement you may want to look at how you read Ranford's comments. He certainly didn't claim the guy was a Vezina candidate.

And if you feel that Ranford's assessment of talent holds a lot more water than your's, well sure, I agree with you.

Two more points to close this spat from my end:

1.  Taking something with a grain of salt means to doubt it.  The bolded sentence means you doubt Ranford even more than I, which I'm sure is not what you meant.

2.  Ranford's comments, which were lavish in their praise (hence the Venzina reference ... it's an allusion, my friend), are just what you'd expect from a goalie coach.  I don't blame Ranford, he's certainly not going to say Bernier stinks.  But that's why I don't put much stock in them.

Anyway, over and out from me.  You can have the last word if you want.
 
I most certainly understand the saying but thanks teach.

My only point being is that Ranford's evaluation of a player is worth a boatload more than that of a fan with a habit of making himself feel important by using big words. We get it, you're smrt.

And with that, I'm done. Feel free to have the last word.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
I most certainly understand the saying but thanks teach.

My only point being is that Ranford's evaluation of a player is worth a boatload more than that of a fan with a habit of making himself feel important by using big words. We get it, you're smrt.

And with that, I'm done. Feel free to have the last word.

Bazinga !!
 
Just a queation:

Let's pre-suppose that Bernier takes the starting job (away feom Reimer), and let' s say tbe Leafs find potential in Reimer as trade bait.  Were that to happen, hypotherically speaking, who would then be Bernier's backup -- Owuya, McIntyre, Rynas, et al? 
 
hockeyfan1 said:
Just a queation:

Let's pre-suppose that Bernier takes the starting job (away feom Reimer), and let' s say tbe Leafs find potential in Reimer as trade bait.  Were that to happen, hypotherically speaking, who would then be Bernier's backup -- Owuya, McIntyre, Rynas, et al?

Perhaps, or maybe if Reimer is trade bait a backup goalie comes back in the trade as well.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Frank E said:
But they do have limited assets, in terms of good roster players on cheap RFA contracts.

It really is an either or, given the scarcity of these assets.

No, because as limited as the assets are imaginary trades where the Leafs package three lower-tier assets for  all-stars are even more so which means they really can do both.

You're talking about imaginary trades, and I'm talking about assets that are not unlimited.

 
Frank E said:
You're talking about imaginary trades, and I'm talking about assets that are not unlimited.

Close. You're criticizing Nonis for not saving his limited assets to use in an imaginary trade you think would be better than the one he actually made whereas I'm saying that the team has enough assets to make this trade and others and, regardless,  these aren't the sorts of assets that can be used in substantially bigger trades anyway.
 
Zee said:
hockeyfan1 said:
Just a queation:

Let's pre-suppose that Bernier takes the starting job (away feom Reimer), and let' s say tbe Leafs find potential in Reimer as trade bait.  Were that to happen, hypotherically speaking, who would then be Bernier's backup -- Owuya, McIntyre, Rynas, et al?

Perhaps, or maybe if Reimer is trade bait a backup goalie comes back in the trade as well.

How come I see Reimer in Flyers uniform next season??  ;)
 
RedLeaf said:
Zee said:
hockeyfan1 said:
Just a queation:

Let's pre-suppose that Bernier takes the starting job (away feom Reimer), and let' s say tbe Leafs find potential in Reimer as trade bait.  Were that to happen, hypotherically speaking, who would then be Bernier's backup -- Owuya, McIntyre, Rynas, et al?

Perhaps, or maybe if Reimer is trade bait a backup goalie comes back in the trade as well.

How come I see Reimer in Flyers uniform next season??  ;)

Did you eat some spicy food right before bed?
 
Zee said:
hockeyfan1 said:
Just a queation:

Let's pre-suppose that Bernier takes the starting job (away feom Reimer), and let' s say tbe Leafs find potential in Reimer as trade bait.  Were that to happen, hypotherically speaking, who would then be Bernier's backup -- Owuya, McIntyre, Rynas, et al?

Perhaps, or maybe if Reimer is trade bait a backup goalie comes back in the trade as well.

We could trade Reimer to LA for Frattin and Scrivens, perhaps?
 
Nik the Trik said:
Frank E said:
You're talking about imaginary trades, and I'm talking about assets that are not unlimited.

Close. You're criticizing Nonis for not saving his limited assets to use in an imaginary trade you think would be better than the one he actually made whereas I'm saying that the team has enough assets to make this trade and others and, regardless,  these aren't the sorts of assets that can be used in substantially bigger trades anyway.

Close.  I'm being critical of the trade because I believe the types of assets required to upgrade our forward and defense are exactly like the ones just spent.  They are in limited supply on this team, and I believe they are required make more substantial deals in this cap-crunch year.

Draft picks and RFAs are certainly used in substantial trades.
 
RedLeaf said:
Zee said:
hockeyfan1 said:
Just a queation:

Let's pre-suppose that Bernier takes the starting job (away feom Reimer), and let' s say tbe Leafs find potential in Reimer as trade bait.  Were that to happen, hypotherically speaking, who would then be Bernier's backup -- Owuya, McIntyre, Rynas, et al?

Perhaps, or maybe if Reimer is trade bait a backup goalie comes back in the trade as well.

How come I see Reimer in Flyers uniform next season??  ;)

You just might. Maybe for their first plus another asset?
 

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