Leafs Acquired Jonathan Bernier

[Deebo]

I agree with that Nik, I was just suggesting that these assets had some substantial value...not like 7th round picks.

I really don't think Scrivens is worth much more than a 7th, if that. I think we've seen comparable goalies on the waiver wire the last few years.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Hedging your bets isn't exactly a bad idea. Why not have a 1A and 1B tandem for the next 5-7 years?

As long as you can afford it.

 

[Kin]

That's my issue. Reimer has proven himself.

Except the long and short of it? He hasn't. He hasn't played a full season as the team's #1. But even if he had, even if you pretend that he just played what his actual season prorates out to be which is 53 starts as opposed to 33 which I think you'd agree is giving a ton of latitude, the idea of "Hey, our goalie proved he is physically and mentally capable of playing at the level of a #1 goalie for one season, that means he's a lock or even a safe bet to do it next year"? It just doesn't conform to the NHL we've seen these last 8 years. James Reimer having a bad season next year should be no more shocking or unexpected to anyone than Grabo having a bad year this year. Goalie play post '04 lockout has been erratic league wide. The guys who are great year in and year out? It's a tiny list. Look at Carey Price. Carey Price was younger than Reimer when he played in 72 games with a .923 save percentage. Should the Canadiens have decided then that back-up goalie wasn't an important position? Should they think that now?

See that's the essential split here. Not I think it was a good value deal, you think it wasn't. The essential split is that I don't look at goaltending or the position of "back-up" as being the same as it was 25 years ago when you had to wonder why Patrick Roy had to share the Jennings with Brian Hayward.

 

[Frank E]

I agree with that Nik, I was just suggesting that these assets had some substantial value...not like 7th round picks.

I really don't think Scrivens is worth much more than a 7th, if that. I think we've seen comparable goalies on the waiver wire the last few years.

Really though?  He's at $500K with a 91.5%SP last year at 26 years old?

I guess we'll see though.

 

[Bender]

Hedging your bets isn't exactly a bad idea. Why not have a 1A and 1B tandem for the next 5-7 years?

As long as you can afford it.

Thats the thing, I don't think we gave up a whole lot for a guy who may have star potential, who's growth has been stunted by a Vezina winner.

I think trade can be justified, but just like every other trade, there will be an element of risk. To think there isn't is foolish. The Kings could have the trade blow up even moreso in their faces.

 

[Kin]

I agree with that Nik, I was just suggesting that these assets had some substantial value...not like 7th round picks.

Sure but I think you'd agree that I was speaking more towards the fact that it helps us more to look at this trade through the speficness of the value of these assets vs. the value of Bernier as opposed to just saying "three assets" for one "backup".

I'm not crazy about this trade, and I know you suggested the five nickels for a quarter deal that doesn't exist, but I would have preferred they expend those assets toward addressing other areas in need.

I would have preferred that they used these assets on any number of things but I can't take Dave Nonis to task for the imaginary trades he doesn't make. Regardless, while you think these are "average" assets there's nothing the Leafs traded here that they can't comfortably trade away more of. It's not an either/or.

 

[Deebo]

I agree with that Nik, I was just suggesting that these assets had some substantial value...not like 7th round picks.

I really don't think Scrivens is worth much more than a 7th, if that. I think we've seen comparable goalies on the waiver wire the last few years.

Really though?  He's at $500K with a 91.5%SP last year at 26 years old?

I guess we'll see though.

I find it doubtful that many NHL GMs would give up much more than 7th rounder if they were trading for him. He'll be 27 before the 13/14 season starts and has 32 NHL games under his belt, less if don't count relief appearances.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Thats the thing, I don't think we gave up a whole lot for a guy who may have star potential, who's growth has been stunted by a Vezina winner.

I think trade can be justified, but just like every other trade, there will be an element of risk. To think there isn't is foolish. The Kings could have the trade blow up even moreso in their faces.

I kind of like the idea of having two young potential #1's or the tandem, in general.

 

[Champ Kind]

It wasn't a horrible trade, but how many other teams do you see trading three assets for a backup goalie?

How many teams do you see agreeing to pay their #2 center 9.5 million dollars a year? One, the Penguins, because their #2 center is Evgeni Malkin. How many "back-up" goalies are 24 years old with the potential to be solid #1's?

I mean repeatedly referring to them as "three assets" without qualifying for how valuable they actually are isn't going to sway many people. Three seventh round picks are three assets. The only thing I care about is whether or not Bernier can improve the team, he can, and if they paid a fair price for him which the nature of how they acquired him seems to say that they had to.

To add to this, I think that if you honestly look at what was given up and the general market for good, young goaltending, you'll conclude that the Leafs certainly did not overpay:

- Tampa Bay acquired Anders Linback (with 16 games NHL experience), along with Kyle Wilson and a 7'th, for Sebastien Caron, from Nashville two 2012 second-round draft picks and a 2013 third-round draft pick.
- Colorado brought in Seymon Varlamov (he of 59 NHL games) for a first and a conditional 2'nd round pick.
- St. Louis receives Jaroslav Halak (101 games)for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
- Columbus received Sergei Bobrovsky  (83 games NHL experience, including a quite poor 2011-2012 season) for a 2'nd and two 4'th round picks.  Again, this was before his Vezina trophy.
-  Tampa Bay acquired Ben Bishop, he of 23 mediocre games in the NHL, for Cory Conacher and a 4'th.  Ok, so maybe this isn't the greatest example....

All in all, I think the Leafs acquisition of Bernier (63 games) compares consistently, if not favourably, against the market for good, young goaltending over the last few years.

 

[#1PilarFan]

I think people are really underrating Bernier here. Yes, he has limited experience. Yes, he's unproven.

But he has a ton of potential. Like, top 5 goaltender potential. He was an amazing prospect, has played well in his limited opportunities and his biggest knock is that he was a victim of circumstance. I'm not saying he's going to come in and destroy the league, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out either. There's a pretty good chance Bernier, not Reimer, ends up being the #1 goaltender next year.

 

[Corn Flake]

-  Tampa Bay acquired Ben Bishop, he of 23 mediocre games in the NHL, for Cory Conacher and a 4'th.  Ok, so maybe this isn't the greatest example....

All in all, I think the Leafs acquisition of Bernier (63 games) compares consistently, if not favourably, against the market for good, young goaltending over the last few years.

Bishop being the goalie with the least upside of that entire group so as an example he's not quite in line.  I'd compare him more to Scrivens in terms of value, maybe a tad more because of the hype and the nice run he had.

And of all those names, Bernier has probably had more hype as being the real deal next young stud goalie for the longest amount of time.  That may or may not end up being the case but the hype has been there for a long long time and LA has reportedly turned down many trades for him over the years.

I'm still ridiculously thankful our 1st wasn't in the deal. 

 

[ZBBM]

Will Bernier pan out, is the question.  To hear Ranford tell it, the guy is Vezina material.  I'd take that with several grains of salt.

I also think Frattin could flourish in LA.  How he was used by RC was  bit of a puzzler (like so many of his lineup decisions).  Going 0 for 21 to end the season sure doesn't help me make my point, but then again (rather like Grabs) he wasn't put in a position to really play to his offensive strengths.  Lombardi, at any rate, apparently wanted him more than Matt Read.

So, for people to take the word of an actual goalie coach they should do so quite hesitantly but they should take your word,a fan, that Frattin is going to flourish? I see. Do you see anything else in that crystal ball?

Well, now that you've asked so cogently, I'm afraid see a future with more and more illiteracy.  You know, with more people who cannot even grasp the simple word "could."  It's going to be brutal.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think people are really underrating Bernier here. Yes, he has limited experience. Yes, he's unproven.

But he has a ton of potential. Like, top 5 goaltender potential. He was an amazing prospect, has played well in his limited opportunities and his biggest knock is that he was a victim of circumstance. I'm not saying he's going to come in and destroy the league, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out either. There's a pretty good chance Bernier, not Reimer, ends up being the #1 goaltender next year.

I would say he's up there with Tukka Rask in terms of his situation in how he got stuck behind a veteran and was held back because of it.  Obvious difference being Bernier had to be traded out of town to find some room to play and Rask just had the benefit of that older goalie losing his mind and wandering away from hockey.  Both goalies had to wait about 1.5 years longer than they probably should have to get their shot.

So hopefully, now that he's being given the chance to play a lot more, he takes the ball and runs with it.

 

[pmrules]

Given that there are almost similar reactions to the for side  and for the against side, leads me to believe that the price was likely fair.

From an LA perspective, they got a mid-20's year old "prospect" 3rd liner on the Leafs who hasn't scored a goal in months and has some to little chance of breaking into LA's top 6, a backup goaltender who is a downgrade on what we had before, and a mid 2nd round pick a year or two down the road.  If I'm LA, I'm wondering is that enough for our most trade-able asset this off-season?

As a Leaf fan, I'm more comfortable with having Reimer and Bernier in goal.  Best case scenario, they both exceed expectations and you trade one of them for an area of need. 

 

[Champ Kind]

-  Tampa Bay acquired Ben Bishop, he of 23 mediocre games in the NHL, for Cory Conacher and a 4'th.  Ok, so maybe this isn't the greatest example....

All in all, I think the Leafs acquisition of Bernier (63 games) compares consistently, if not favourably, against the market for good, young goaltending over the last few years.

Bishop being the goalie with the least upside of that entire group so as an example he's not quite in line.  I'd compare him more to Scrivens in terms of value, maybe a tad more because of the hype and the nice run he had.

And of all those names, Bernier has probably had more hype as being the real deal next young stud goalie for the longest amount of time.  That may or may not end up being the case but the hype has been there for a long long time and LA has reportedly turned down many trades for him over the years.

I'm still ridiculously thankful our 1st wasn't in the deal. 

I'd agree with you, Corn.  I'd say there's a lot of similarity between Bernier and Varlamov, whoc went for a first (a high first, if memory serves) and a second.  That's a steep price to pay.  Comparatively, I'd say the Leafs got pretty good value in this deal.  And, if Bernier performs, the value goes through the roof.

 

[caver]

X 3   

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Will Bernier pan out, is the question.  To hear Ranford tell it, the guy is Vezina material.  I'd take that with several grains of salt.

I also think Frattin could flourish in LA.  How he was used by RC was  bit of a puzzler (like so many of his lineup decisions).  Going 0 for 21 to end the season sure doesn't help me make my point, but then again (rather like Grabs) he wasn't put in a position to really play to his offensive strengths.  Lombardi, at any rate, apparently wanted him more than Matt Read.

So, for people to take the word of an actual goalie coach they should do so quite hesitantly but they should take your word,a fan, that Frattin is going to flourish? I see. Do you see anything else in that crystal ball?

Well, now that you've asked so cogently, I'm afraid see a future with more and more illiteracy.  You know, with more people who cannot even grasp the simple word "could."  It's going to be brutal.

Despite your need to be an ass, the point remains.

Ranford has said that he thinks Bernier could be a "number one who will have to fight for his starts with James Reimer"(not reading that Ranford said he'd be a Vezina candidate).

And I apologize, but I take his statements with a few more grains of salt than those of a fan on an internet messageboard.

Oh and if you're going to accuse someone of being illiterate, you may want to go back and read your reply to me. I believe there may be a word or two missing.

 

[ZBBM]

Will Bernier pan out, is the question.  To hear Ranford tell it, the guy is Vezina material.  I'd take that with several grains of salt.

I also think Frattin could flourish in LA.  How he was used by RC was  bit of a puzzler (like so many of his lineup decisions).  Going 0 for 21 to end the season sure doesn't help me make my point, but then again (rather like Grabs) he wasn't put in a position to really play to his offensive strengths.  Lombardi, at any rate, apparently wanted him more than Matt Read.

So, for people to take the word of an actual goalie coach they should do so quite hesitantly but they should take your word,a fan, that Frattin is going to flourish? I see. Do you see anything else in that crystal ball?

Well, now that you've asked so cogently, I'm afraid see a future with more and more illiteracy.  You know, with more people who cannot even grasp the simple word "could."  It's going to be brutal.

Despite your need to be an ass, the point remains.

Ranford has said that he thinks Bernier could be a "number one who will have to fight for his starts with James Reimer"(not reading that Ranford said he'd be a Vezina candidate).

And I apologize, but I take his statements with a few more grains of salt than those of a fan on an internet messageboard.

Oh and if you're going to accuse someone of being illiterate, you may want to go back and read your reply to me. I believe there may be a word or two missing.

Don't be so touchy.  You're the one who jumped all over my innocuous post with a clich?d attempt at sarcasm.  And let's not confuse illiteracy with my inability to type.

As for the bolded ... well, I guess you agree with me then??

 

[Jolly good show chaps]

Sorry for the slight change in subject chaps but surely having given up Frattin in this deal we should look to keep MacArthur for another year or sign him for longer and cash in at the trade deadline.

 

[Frank E]

I would have preferred that they used these assets on any number of things but I can't take Dave Nonis to task for the imaginary trades he doesn't make. Regardless, while you think these are "average" assets there's nothing the Leafs traded here that they can't comfortably trade away more of. It's not an either/or.

But they do have limited assets, in terms of good roster players on cheap RFA contracts.

It really is an either or, given the scarcity of these assets.