bustaheims
Well-known member
herman said:
While I agree the Bruins made a strange choice, I disagree with the bolded line. It's a little too hyperbolic for me.
Maple Leafs 2016 Draft Recap
- Thread starter WhatIfGodWasALeaf
- Start date
While I agree the Bruins made a strange choice, I disagree with the bolded line. It's a little too hyperbolic for me.
Highlander
Active member
This is an extremely positive revue.
Could you describe J.D. Greenway?s game in a little detail for us?
Danton Cole: He?s a big, physical defenceman. His game has come along way. I think certain things about him are pretty underrated. He ended up with 27 or 28 points for us, which is pretty good for a defenceman. I know Adam Fox had the 59 points this year so that kind of skews things, but if you look at Trouba or Jones in their last years, they were right around there or a little bit north of it. He?s a big, physical guy. I think he keeps it pretty simple. He played with Clayton Keller?s line quite a bit, and I think he understood his job was to get the puck moving forward.
Good first pass?
Cole: Outstanding, and it got better and better over the two years. It was smart and it was quick. He found out, like a lot of defencemen, that he could hold it a little longer. He started to figure out that if he got it and moved it that a lot of good things happen offensively. At the Under-18 World Championships, he was +16 in our seven games there. He wasn?t on the ice for one goal against. He had probably the top assignments every game and was killing a ton of penalties as well. That was outstanding. Plus, he had seven points in seven games. I look at where guys end up in the draft, and value wise I think that was a great pick. I think, in a couple of years, as he keeps developing at Wisconsin with the coaches there ? Mark Osiecki has done a great job with a lot of young D ? you?ll look at him and think it?s a first-round draft pick. I think, with his mental progress ? which sometimes comes quick, sometimes takes a while and sometimes doesn?t happen until guys leave ? a lot of things kicked in for J.D. in the last half of the season. It really accelerated his learning and also his efficiency and understanding of the game. When you see that kick in, and you see guys start to move down that line in understanding how things connect, it?s a wonderful thing. He kicked into that and his game just took off from there. It was a lot of fun to see that happen.
Could you describe J.D. Greenway?s game in a little detail for us?
Danton Cole: He?s a big, physical defenceman. His game has come along way. I think certain things about him are pretty underrated. He ended up with 27 or 28 points for us, which is pretty good for a defenceman. I know Adam Fox had the 59 points this year so that kind of skews things, but if you look at Trouba or Jones in their last years, they were right around there or a little bit north of it. He?s a big, physical guy. I think he keeps it pretty simple. He played with Clayton Keller?s line quite a bit, and I think he understood his job was to get the puck moving forward.
Good first pass?
Cole: Outstanding, and it got better and better over the two years. It was smart and it was quick. He found out, like a lot of defencemen, that he could hold it a little longer. He started to figure out that if he got it and moved it that a lot of good things happen offensively. At the Under-18 World Championships, he was +16 in our seven games there. He wasn?t on the ice for one goal against. He had probably the top assignments every game and was killing a ton of penalties as well. That was outstanding. Plus, he had seven points in seven games. I look at where guys end up in the draft, and value wise I think that was a great pick. I think, in a couple of years, as he keeps developing at Wisconsin with the coaches there ? Mark Osiecki has done a great job with a lot of young D ? you?ll look at him and think it?s a first-round draft pick. I think, with his mental progress ? which sometimes comes quick, sometimes takes a while and sometimes doesn?t happen until guys leave ? a lot of things kicked in for J.D. in the last half of the season. It really accelerated his learning and also his efficiency and understanding of the game. When you see that kick in, and you see guys start to move down that line in understanding how things connect, it?s a wonderful thing. He kicked into that and his game just took off from there. It was a lot of fun to see that happen.
herman
Well-known member
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/06/28/toronto-maple-leafs-2016-draft/
That Russian 5 guy takes a speculative dive into the Leaf's 2016 draft class.
Some keen observations regarding drafting overage players, especially international ones, and targeting underperformers:
That Russian 5 guy takes a speculative dive into the Leaf's 2016 draft class.
Some keen observations regarding drafting overage players, especially international ones, and targeting underperformers:
Highlander
Active member
Herman the information provided on Korshkov was very encouraging as well, not to mention the highlights from the WJC. Kid has soft hands and a big frame
herman
Well-known member
Just to see this all in one place:
2016
2015
2016
| Rd | Pick | Player | Year | Position | Height | Weight |
| 1 | 1 | Auston Matthews | 1997 (D-0) | C | 6'2" | 216 lbs |
| 2 | 31 | Yegor Korshkov | 1996 (D+2) | RW | 6'3" | 179 lbs |
| 2 | 57 | Carl Grundstrom | 1997 (D-0) | LW | 6'0" | 194 lbs |
| 3 | 62 | Joseph Woll | 1998 (D-0) | G | 6'3" | 196 lbs |
| 3 | 72 | J.D. Greenway | 1998 (D-0) | LD | 6'4" | 205 lbs |
| 4 | 92 | Adam Brooks | 1996 (D+2) | C | 5'11" | 176 lbs |
| 4 | 101 | Keaton Middleton | 1998 (D-0) | LD | 6'5" | 234 lbs |
| 5 | 122 | Vladimir Bobylev | 1997 (D+1) | LW/C | 6'2" | 203 lbs |
| 6 | 152 | Jonathan "Jack" Walker | 1996 (D+2) | LW | 5'11" | 179 lbs |
| 6 | 179 | Nicolas Mattinen | 1998 (D-0) | RD | 6'4" | 220 lbs |
| 7 | 182 | Nikolai Chebykin | 1997 (D+1) | LW/RW | 6'3" | 209 lbs |
2015
| Rd | Pick | Player | Year | Position | Height | Weight |
| 1 | 4 | Mitch Marner | 1997 (D-0) | C/RW | 5'11" | 163 lbs |
| 2 | 34 | Travis Dermott | 1996 (D-0) | LD | 5'11" | 196 lbs |
| 2 | 61 | Jeremy Bracco | 1997 (D-0) | RW/C | 5'9" | 172 lbs |
| 3 | 65 | Andrew Nielsen | 1996 (D-0) | LD | 6'3" | 207 lbs |
| 3 | 68 | Martins Dzierkals | 1997 (D-0) | LW/RW | 5'11" | 170 lbs |
| 4 | 95 | Jesper Lindgren | 1997 (D-0) | RD | 6'0" | 161 lbs |
| 5 | 125 | Dmytro Timashov | 1996 (D-0) | LW/RW | 5'10" | 187 lbs |
| 6 | 155 | Stephen Desrocher | 1996 (D+1) | LD | 6'4" | 198 lbs |
| 7 | 185 | Nikita Korostelev | 1997 (D-0) | LW/RW | 6'1" | 194 lbs |
McGarnagle
New member
only 2 guys out of 11 under 6 feet. And even then just barely on those two.
Coco-puffs
New member
Nik the Trik said:
Korshkov wasn't very likely to make it out of the 2nd round. He was the 7th ranked European skater according to NHL CS. Guess who else went before the 57th pick? (European ranking in brackets)
Rubstrov (5th) and Borgstrom (9th) went in the first round.
Asplund (4th), Dahlen (11th), Kuokkanen (20th), Kayumov (14th), Hronek (8th).
There might have been very little chance he was still around at 57... I bet they didn't expect Grundstrom to still be there either.
Kin
Active member
Coco-puffs said:
That's one scouting opinion among many:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=176637
Coco-puffs
New member
Nik the Trik said:
Yup.... and we saw how well the actual draft played out compared to all of the rankings. NHL teams don't follow the published rankings, they follow their own internal ones. We have no idea where Korshkov was on anyone else's list.... he only needed to be NEXT on about one of about 20 lists (number of teams picking between 31 and 57).
The Leafs valued him higher than most- and probably for good reason, considering the scouts (Namestnikov) pushing him also led us to Soshnikov. They didn't want to miss out on him. Its not like the Leafs were the only ones who would have valued him that high- after 8 pts in 7 g at the WJC, he wasn't off everyone's radar and would have fallen to the 5th round.
I get it... you liked other players at 31 and I'm not saying I didn't either. Its easy to get excited about the players in the CHL that put up big numbers in their draft year. Its a lot harder to get excited about players who passed through drafts previously as it seems those players are behind in their development- but not everyone develops at the same time.
Kin
Active member
Coco-puffs said:
I don't think that's an accurate categorization of what I'm saying. I have very different feelings about the Korshkov pick and the Grundstrom pick and neither of those guys are "CHL players with big numbers". If that was the only pick a person would favour they'd be ruling out any picks from Europe or the USNDT.
The thing about a pick like Laberge isn't that he's a "CHL player with big numbers" because he's not really. 68 points in the QMJHL isn't a big deal. It's that there's far more consensus on him and his abilities.
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=252492
A low 1st round ranking is common, the worst he does is a mid 2nd round grade. By comparison, Korshkov has only two 2nd round grades and falls as low as a late 4th round ranking. The Leafs aren't the only team that has drafted successful Russian players and while Soshnikov is a promising looking prospect he's certainly not at the level where he himself is a justification for any Russian drafted.
Obviously there's a lot of guesswork when it comes to the draft and instant analysis is flawed no matter what but I don't think we should be limited to "The Leafs made the pick, therefore they liked the player, therefore it's a good pick". This front office group hasn't achieved enough to get that sort of credit and, to be honest, no front office really has.
Coco-puffs
New member
Nik the Trik said:
I'm too lazy to breakdown your post into individual posts, but here are my comments:
- There is usually more consensus on players from the CHL because of the number of eyes that see those players. Generally, the differences in grading players from the CHL comes down to how much the evaluator values speed vs skill vs size.
- In turn, European players that are late bloomers don't get evaluated nearly as often- hence the wide range of grades.
- I agree with your last paragraph. I'm not saying Korshkov was a "good pick" and our front office definitely hasn't achieved enough to not question their decisions. I'm just pointing out that our front office has more information than just about any fan or online scouting website- including input from the guy who coached him and from a Russian scout who has done well for us so far. So I'm not going to be disappointed that they passed over players who were more widely considered better prospects. We won't know for years if they made the right decision because, as you said, the draft comes down to a whole lot of guesswork.
Kin
Active member
Coco-puffs said:
To be honest, I'm not sure it's entirely true. I don't think it's fair to say our staff necessarily has "more" information than someone like McKenzie or anyone else who does this thing seriously. And information doesn't really mean much as a quantitative thing here anyway. The biggest draft busts in history were all made with reams of information at the pickers' fingertips.
Regardless though, the lack of consensus is just one of the reasons I'm not particularly thrilled with this pick. I still think a high 2nd should be used to aim a little higher, especially when there are high value players at positions of need. If the reviews of Korshkov were the people who liked him thinking he was an immensely skilled sleeper who could be a big deal, that'd be one thing but just a little while ago this pick was being defended as low ceiling safety.
Coco-puffs
New member
Nik the Trik said:
I don't agree with those who defended the pick as a low-ceiling safe pick. His projection/ceiling is still of a skilled Top-6 forward in many eyes:
http://thehockeywriters.com/egor-korshkov-the-next-ones-nhl-2016-draft-prospect-profile/
Players who have low ceilings aren't in NHL CS's Top 10 European Skaters.
By the way... I did prefer a defenseman with high upside with this pick, or Abramov or Debrincat at forward. They do have higher ceilings but come with higher risk. I'm not disappointed though as they didn't draft someone projected to be a bottom-six grinder either.
Coco-puffs
New member
Nik the Trik said:
:
Yup, because there are less than four players in every draft who are low risk, high reward.