Mark Fraser

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

So burying him in the minors costs about 350k then?

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Yeah, but that's offset by the fact that Liles will be the hardest to move/will fetch the least in return. If Rielly is ready to step up trading Franson at what could be a high point right now could work just as well.

I get that point, but the problem I have with that is that even though Rielly may be better in the future than Franson, he's not there yet, regardless of how good he is in camp. It would almost feel like we're taking a bit of a step back while we wait for Rielly to replace what Franson is bringing now.

Maybe Phaneuf's future is really more tied to what we do with Franson, than any of our young blueliners. If Nonis is planning on signing Phaneuf, I'd be more willing to trade Franson and get the high return. If they aren't going to sign Phaneuf, I'd rather get rid of Liles for nothing and keep what we know is working for this year, to continue to push the playoff contention pace.

I know I'm probably in the minority on that, but that's the way I see it. I want this team to keep going forward and getting deeper in the playoffs, than perhaps stall out for a year, because we didn't have Franson in the line up, while Rielly is getting use to the pro game.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

So burying him in the minors costs about 350k then?

Plus the cost of a replacement defenceman, so it wouldn't really help cap wise that much.

 

[Zee]

So burying him in the minors costs about 350k then?

Plus the cost of a replacement defenceman, so it wouldn't really help cap wise that much.

They already signed Paul Ranger at a far lower cost.  Liles is basically the 7th guy at this point.  They also have Holzer they can keep as #7

 

[Champ Kind]

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0.

That is honestly one of the oddest comparisons I've ever seen.

What about Vincent Lecavalier as the "Michael Jordan" of hockey?

 

[Kin]

I get that point, but the problem I have with that is that even though Rielly may be better in the future than Franson, he's not there yet, regardless of how good he is in camp. It would almost feel like we're taking a bit of a step back while we wait for Rielly to replace what Franson is bringing now.

I don't think you can say definitively one way or the other where Rielly is until we actually see it. As I mentioned elsewhere the idea of someone picked where he is being ready for the NHL at his age isn't new or all that rare.

Regardless, I didn't say Rielly would replace Franson, just that if Rielly is ready for the line-up he might make Franson more expendable. If anyone is going to "replace" Franson this year it's going to be Gardiner.

 

[Champ Kind]

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0. His shot is much better than Gill's ever was but Gill is much better defensively and plays the body more. Both skate like they are in molasses. Liles has a much better offensive side but he is small and soft. I don't think Franson will ever be worth 3.8 - 4 million in my eyes. Besides he is secondary to getting Kadri signed as far as I'm concerned.

Franson is much more Todd Gill than Hal Gill.

That doesn't help the discussion, Busta.  :

 

[bustaheims]

That doesn't help the discussion, Busta.  :

Anything that makes things more accurate helps the discussion.

 

[Kin]

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0.

That is honestly one of the oddest comparisons I've ever seen.

What about Vincent Lecavalier as the "Michael Jordan" of hockey?

Even still. I knew what that guy was saying, at least. He was just wrong. This one is just about them both being tall, I guess.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0. His shot is much better than Gill's ever was but Gill is much better defensively and plays the body more. Both skate like they are in molasses. Liles has a much better offensive side but he is small and soft. I don't think Franson will ever be worth 3.8 - 4 million in my eyes. Besides he is secondary to getting Kadri signed as far as I'm concerned.

Comparing Franson's skating to Hal Gill's is a huge stretch.

 

[bustaheims]

I get that point, but the problem I have with that is that even though Rielly may be better in the future than Franson, he's not there yet, regardless of how good he is in camp. It would almost feel like we're taking a bit of a step back while we wait for Rielly to replace what Franson is bringing now.

It's not just about Rielly, though. Between Rielly, Ranger and Gardiner, you more than replace Franson's offence while increasing the mobility of the backend. You lose a little physicality, sure, but, really, the defensive value of big hits is vastly over-rated, and, in fact, often leaves players out of position. You don't really lose anything on the PK, since Franson wasn't much of a contributor there and his PP contributions would be replaced by the aforementioned trio.

While I'd agree, in a vacuum, moving Liles would be preferably to moving Franson, when everything is considered, the team probably gains more in terms of assets coming in than loses in terms of on ice performances if Franson is traded, whereas, for Liles, it's probably the other way around - largely because the return for Liles is likely to be so marginal.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I don't think you can say definitively one way or the other where Rielly is until we actually see it. As I mentioned elsewhere the idea of someone picked where he is being ready for the NHL at his age isn't new or all that rare.

Regardless, I didn't say Rielly would replace Franson, just that if Rielly is ready for the line-up he might make Franson more expendable. If anyone is going to "replace" Franson this year it's going to be Gardiner.

Well, I'm looking at it from an adjustment period from junior to pro, rather than talent or level of development.

As far as Gardiner replacing Franson, I want them on the same line together, so I don't look at it from that standpoint. I want:

Gunnarsson/ Phaneuf
Gardiner/ Franson
Fraser/ whoever

 

[Redleaf]

If Franson really is asking for anywhere in the neighborhood of 4 million per season he will be the one traded and Liles will be around for a bit longer. He isn't worth 4 million per season, not even close.

I disagree. I think he's worth at least the 3.8 million Liles is making this season, but in the next few years, I think he is going to be worth a lot more. I don't think you're reading the market very well.

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0. His shot is much better than Gill's ever was but Gill is much better defensively and plays the body more. Both skate like they are in molasses. Liles has a much better offensive side but he is small and soft. I don't think Franson will ever be worth 3.8 - 4 million in my eyes. Besides he is secondary to getting Kadri signed as far as I'm concerned.

How do you compare Franson to Gill, and then, besides their skating, tell us how much different they are as players?

 

[Kin]

Well, I'm looking at it from an adjustment period from junior to pro, rather than talent or level of development.

But that's what I'm saying. The idea that there's such a steep learning curve that a guy with Rielly's talent can't come in and immediately contribute valuable minutes in the NHL isn't a guarantee but it's certainly not an impossibility.

As far as Gardiner replacing Franson, I want them on the same line together, so I don't look at it from that standpoint. I want:

But it's not a matter of how you look at it, really.  You said that you think trading Franson means they take a step back from last year when what I'm saying is that Gardiner's increased presence already makes that not true regardless of whatever they might get from Rielly.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

So burying him in the minors costs about 350k then?

Plus the cost of a replacement defenceman, so it wouldn't really help cap wise that much.

They already signed Paul Ranger at a far lower cost.  Liles is basically the 7th guy at this point.  They also have Holzer they can keep as #7

I wasn't saying that we'd have to find one or anything, but somebody would still have to take his spot on the roster. So say Holzer beats him for a spot and we send Fraser down instead of Holzer, there's not much cap savings (if any, I don't remember Holzer's cap hit).

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

It's not just about Rielly, though. Between Rielly, Ranger and Gardiner, you more than replace Franson's offence while increasing the mobility of the backend. You lose a little physicality, sure, but, really, the defensive value of big hits is vastly over-rated, and, in fact, often leaves players out of position. You don't really lose anything on the PK, since Franson wasn't much of a contributor there and his PP contributions would be replaced by the aforementioned trio.

While I'd agree, in a vacuum, moving Liles would be preferably to moving Franson, when everything is considered, the team probably gains more in terms of assets coming in than loses in terms of on ice performances if Franson is traded, whereas, for Liles, it's probably the other way around - largely because the return for Liles is likely to be so marginal.

They're good points, I sort of conveyed my thinking in the above post to Nik. Ultimately, I guess we'll have to see how difficult it's going to be to sign Franson, versus, how good our other guys are going to pick up the slack from potentially losing Franson. I get that we'll get a lot back in trade, but I like Franson, if it's not obvious.

 

[bustaheims]

I wasn't saying that we'd have to find one or anything, but somebody would still have to take his spot on the roster. So say Holzer beats him for a spot and we send Fraser down instead of Holzer, there's not much cap savings (if any, I don't remember Holzer's cap hit).

Holzer's cap hit is $737K, so, that sort of swap would represent like $200K in cap savings - so, like you said, not much.

 

[mr grieves]

Signed...

1 year, $1.275 mil.

Probably a touch more than I would have liked, but they avoided arbitration. Now there is only $5mil left to sign both Franson and Kadri. Something has to give. Hopefully Liles switches uniforms soon.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=428761

X2

X3

I am glad he is a Leaf.  Against Boston in the playoffs, Fraser comfortably fought their toughest Bruin in Thornton and held his own, lost by a slight edge but held his own none the less.

6'4" 220 lbs, 6 th defenseman.  I am pleased.

Now sort out the top 5 defensemen Nonis.

Yeah, except the team didn't start playing well until he was out of the line-up.

 

[Palmateer29]

If Franson really is asking for anywhere in the neighborhood of 4 million per season he will be the one traded and Liles will be around for a bit longer. He isn't worth 4 million per season, not even close.

I disagree. I think he's worth at least the 3.8 million Liles is making this season, but in the next few years, I think he is going to be worth a lot more. I don't think you're reading the market very well.

I think Franson is Hal Gill 2.0. His shot is much better than Gill's ever was but Gill is much better defensively and plays the body more. Both skate like they are in molasses. Liles has a much better offensive side but he is small and soft. I don't think Franson will ever be worth 3.8 - 4 million in my eyes. Besides he is secondary to getting Kadri signed as far as I'm concerned.

How do you compare Franson to Gill, and then, besides their skating, tell us how much different they are as players?

I think they are similar in physical make up and speed. One is better with their shot, one is better with their defensive play. I don't see a huge problem with the comparison. I think Franson had some very good games last year to the point I had changed my opinion on him, but not enough that I overpay that much for him. I have never been a huge Franson fan.

I liked Todd Gill as a D-man for the Leafs I don't see very much Todd Gill in Franson maybe you do for some reason.

 

[Andy007]

Signed...

1 year, $1.275 mil.

Probably a touch more than I would have liked, but they avoided arbitration. Now there is only $5mil left to sign both Franson and Kadri. Something has to give. Hopefully Liles switches uniforms soon.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=428761

X2

X3

I am glad he is a Leaf.  Against Boston in the playoffs, Fraser comfortably fought their toughest Bruin in Thornton and held his own, lost by a slight edge but held his own none the less.

6'4" 220 lbs, 6 th defenseman.  I am pleased.

Now sort out the top 5 defensemen Nonis.

Yeah, except the team didn't start playing well until he was out of the line-up.

Not to mention the fact that he was noticeably bad the games he did play.