Official Armchair GM Thread 2014-2015 Leafs

[L K]

Nazem Kadri at age 23 - 20 goals 30 assists
Tyler Bozak at age 23 - Not in NHL

Tyler Bozak at age 25 - 32 points in 82 games and a -32
Nazem Kadri at age 25 - He's 23

But Bozak is an undisputed better player

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

It's incredible, Bozak move up and down the lineup? The guy is a decent 3rd line pivot at best who can play some PK and win faceoffs.

His production when he isn't carried by Phil is about on par with mine.

Such a positive outlook on things.

Yeah really. Positivity towards the Leafs....Shameful or refreshing? You decide folks.....

I am actually pretty positive about the team, I love many of the players, I just find some people's take on certain players interesting.

I think the reasons some people cite for their optimism are so far removed from reality, that I've actually spent time wondering if it is an elaborate troll job.

 

[Redleaf]

It's incredible, Bozak move up and down the lineup? The guy is a decent 3rd line pivot at best who can play some PK and win faceoffs.

His production when he isn't carried by Phil is about on par with mine.

Such a positive outlook on things.

Yeah really. Positivity towards the Leafs....Shameful or refreshing? You decide folks.....

I am actually pretty positive about the team, I love many of the players, I just find some people's take on certain players interesting.

I think the reasons some people cite for their optimism are so far removed from reality, that I've actually spent time wondering if it is an elaborate troll job.

I guess my biggest reason for optimism moving forward is the direction the team is taking now, opposed to the quick fix solutions the organization tried for so many years.

Unless management does an about-face and trades away all our good prospects for a shot at instant gratification, this club is finally understanding that drafting and development are the proper way to build a successful team.

Whether or not that leads to a cup down the road is anybody's guess, but I'm optimistic they are finally taking the right approach to achieve that goal.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

It's incredible, Bozak move up and down the lineup? The guy is a decent 3rd line pivot at best who can play some PK and win faceoffs.

His production when he isn't carried by Phil is about on par with mine.

Such a positive outlook on things.

Yeah really. Positivity towards the Leafs....Shameful or refreshing? You decide folks.....

I am actually pretty positive about the team, I love many of the players, I just find some people's take on certain players interesting.

I think the reasons some people cite for their optimism are so far removed from reality, that I've actually spent time wondering if it is an elaborate troll job.

I guess my biggest reason for optimism moving forward is the direction the team is taking now, opposed to the quick fix solutions the organization tried for so many years.

Unless management does an about-face and trades away all our good prospects for a shot at instant gratification, this club is finally understanding that drafting and development are the proper way to build a successful team.

Whether or not that leads to a cup down the road is anybody's guess, but I'm optimistic they are finally taking the right approach to achieve that goal.

You're right here, at least in part in my opinion because management has said all the right things about building from within, keeping young assets.

My biggest issue with the above though is that it requires a keen eye for talent and value and what works in today's NHL and at times some of the decisions this management group has made have left me seriously doubting that they have this.

I believe Randy Carlyle to be a poor coach based on how he tried to deploy his team over the past two years, his systems and even his comments publicly seem to suggest that what he sees on the ice is literally different from what is occurring, that is very worrying.

This management group has waxed lyrical about this team being good, this was a team that had stretches last year of 5 regulation wins in two months(33 games I think) in December/January and then had 2 wins from 14 to close out the year. That is the sign of a team that is systematically failing somewhere. It's not something that can be changed with a 'tweak on our transition on the powerplay' to me when I see results like last season and the past few years it indicates that the problems are really deep rooted and a large part of it is an ineffective coach and at least some players who no longer belong on the team.

I think as a group the team looks maybe a little better now than it did to start last year(although it could be argued that's me having wishful thinking on these new signings), for the most part. It's nice to have some potential for young guys to take the next step with the big club next year, it always provides a morale boost to both the team and the fans when some young guy shows promise.

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Frattin
Komarov-Kontiola-Clarkson
Santorelli-Holland-Ashton

Gardiner-Phaneuf
Reilly-Robidas
Franson(Marlie if he is traded)-Polak

Bernier
Reimer

That's roughly what I think the team will look like opening night, now obviously there might be trades or RFA issues that can change things, but the 'holes in the lineup to inspire young players in our system' that Shannahan has been telling the media about seem few and far between, looking at that team does it look like a significant enough upgrade on last year to cover up the really poor stretches the team had last year?

It looks to me that we are likely headed for a season that is pretty similar to what we have seen recently and that is at least a little discouraging, but hey I'll always have hope!

The Leafs could be successful next year, maybe a rookie, maybe Nylander, maybe someone else, really takes their game to the next level and becomes a hands down no doubt about it impact top 3 dman or top 6 winger. Perhaps Reilly and Gardiner really start to dominate games and push other teams onto the back foot with their skating. Perhaps the Finnish bomber Corporal Komarov re-energizes Clarkson and he finds a way to follow Leo's suit and at least be an impact player if not scoring a heck of a lot.

We're fans, we love the team, we hope for the best, but when looking at the cold hard facts(statistical analysis) combined with the 'eyeball test' it's hard to make a rational, calculated case, for the Toronto Maple Leafs as things stand.

 

[Redleaf]

It's incredible, Bozak move up and down the lineup? The guy is a decent 3rd line pivot at best who can play some PK and win faceoffs.

His production when he isn't carried by Phil is about on par with mine.

Such a positive outlook on things.

Yeah really. Positivity towards the Leafs....Shameful or refreshing? You decide folks.....

I am actually pretty positive about the team, I love many of the players, I just find some people's take on certain players interesting.

I think the reasons some people cite for their optimism are so far removed from reality, that I've actually spent time wondering if it is an elaborate troll job.

I guess my biggest reason for optimism moving forward is the direction the team is taking now, opposed to the quick fix solutions the organization tried for so many years.

Unless management does an about-face and trades away all our good prospects for a shot at instant gratification, this club is finally understanding that drafting and development are the proper way to build a successful team.

Whether or not that leads to a cup down the road is anybody's guess, but I'm optimistic they are finally taking the right approach to achieve that goal.

You're right here, at least in part in my opinion because management has said all the right things about building from within, keeping young assets.

My biggest issue with the above though is that it requires a keen eye for talent and value and what works in today's NHL and at times some of the decisions this management group has made have left me seriously doubting that they have this.

I believe Randy Carlyle to be a poor coach based on how he tried to deploy his team over the past two years, his systems and even his comments publicly seem to suggest that what he sees on the ice is literally different from what is occurring, that is very worrying.

This management group has waxed lyrical about this team being good, this was a team that had stretches last year of 5 regulation wins in two months(33 games I think) in December/January and then had 2 wins from 14 to close out the year. That is the sign of a team that is systematically failing somewhere. It's not something that can be changed with a 'tweak on our transition on the powerplay' to me when I see results like last season and the past few years it indicates that the problems are really deep rooted and a large part of it is an ineffective coach and at least some players who no longer belong on the team.

I think as a group the team looks maybe a little better now than it did to start last year(although it could be argued that's me having wishful thinking on these new signings), for the most part. It's nice to have some potential for young guys to take the next step with the big club next year, it always provides a morale boost to both the team and the fans when some young guy shows promise.

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Frattin
Komarov-Kontiola-Clarkson
Santorelli-Holland-Ashton

Gardiner-Phaneuf
Reilly-Robidas
Franson(Marlie if he is traded)-Polak

Bernier
Reimer

That's roughly what I think the team will look like opening night, now obviously there might be trades or RFA issues that can change things, but the 'holes in the lineup to inspire young players in our system' that Shannahan has been telling the media about seem few and far between, looking at that team does it look like a significant enough upgrade on last year to cover up the really poor stretches the team had last year?

It looks to me that we are likely headed for a season that is pretty similar to what we have seen recently and that is at least a little discouraging, but hey I'll always have hope!

The Leafs could be successful next year, maybe a rookie, maybe Nylander, maybe someone else, really takes their game to the next level and becomes a hands down no doubt about it impact top 3 dman or top 6 winger. Perhaps Reilly and Gardiner really start to dominate games and push other teams onto the back foot with their skating. Perhaps the Finnish bomber Corporal Komarov re-energizes Clarkson and he finds a way to follow Leo's suit and at least be an impact player if not scoring a heck of a lot.

We're fans, we love the team, we hope for the best, but when looking at the cold hard facts(statistical analysis) combined with the 'eyeball test' it's hard to make a rational, calculated case, for the Toronto Maple Leafs as things stand.

I agree with most of your points here. The only thing I may disagree on is whether or not this team has improved this off-season. I'm of the belief they may have actually gotten a little weaker losing Gunnarsson, Kulemin, Raymond, McClement, and to a lesser extend (because of his injury and limited play) Bolland.

I can't really comment too much on the new guys until I see them play, but Komorov isn't going to provide much in the points department. Lupul seemed to have lost a step last season, and I'm a little worried about secondary scoring. In my mind this season is a big test for Kadri. He's going to have to be the go-to guy for that second line, which has to step it up if they have any aspirations of making the playoffs next year.

 

[freer]

If the Leafs could somehow land ROR without out giving up any of the following players, I'd be ecstatic...

Kessel
JVR
Bernier
Rielly
Gardiner
Bozak
Nylander

Anyone else goes in that trade.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2014/07/10/ryan-oreilly-avs-headed-arbitration-really-means/18882/

I think you misspelled Kadri.

Nope. I'd keep Bozak ahead of Kadri any day of the week. He's just a better fit with that top line than Kadri.

This is just never a fair argument to make.  One player has 3100+ more minutes of playing time with Kessel and ~1000 more minutes with JVR.  Give Kadri similar, consistent time with them and it's not a hard argument to make that he'd "fit" just as well.

Until then, it's hard to argue one is a better fit when that player has only ever been given the opportunity to play on the top line while the other hasn't.

Argument isn't whether Kadri is a better player, he has more talent we will all agree with that. His face off skill is not as good. But his major problem is he does not come to play every game. IMO he had the chance with Kessel and only played one good game during the time while Bozak was hurt. Just saying

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

If the Leafs could somehow land ROR without out giving up any of the following players, I'd be ecstatic...

Kessel
JVR
Bernier
Rielly
Gardiner
Bozak
Nylander

Anyone else goes in that trade.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2014/07/10/ryan-oreilly-avs-headed-arbitration-really-means/18882/

I think you misspelled Kadri.

Nope. I'd keep Bozak ahead of Kadri any day of the week. He's just a better fit with that top line than Kadri.

This is just never a fair argument to make.  One player has 3100+ more minutes of playing time with Kessel and ~1000 more minutes with JVR.  Give Kadri similar, consistent time with them and it's not a hard argument to make that he'd "fit" just as well.

Until then, it's hard to argue one is a better fit when that player has only ever been given the opportunity to play on the top line while the other hasn't.

Argument isn't whether Kadri is a better player, he has more talent we will all agree with that. His face off skill is not as good. But his major problem is he does not come to play every game. IMO he had the chance with Kessel and only played one good game during the time while Bozak was hurt. Just saying

Yeah, Bozak doesn't have bad games.

 

[freer]

If the Leafs could somehow land ROR without out giving up any of the following players, I'd be ecstatic...

Kessel
JVR
Bernier
Rielly
Gardiner
Bozak
Nylander

Anyone else goes in that trade.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2014/07/10/ryan-oreilly-avs-headed-arbitration-really-means/18882/

I think you misspelled Kadri.

Nope. I'd keep Bozak ahead of Kadri any day of the week. He's just a better fit with that top line than Kadri.

This is just never a fair argument to make.  One player has 3100+ more minutes of playing time with Kessel and ~1000 more minutes with JVR.  Give Kadri similar, consistent time with them and it's not a hard argument to make that he'd "fit" just as well.

Until then, it's hard to argue one is a better fit when that player has only ever been given the opportunity to play on the top line while the other hasn't.

Argument isn't whether Kadri is a better player, he has more talent we will all agree with that. His face off skill is not as good. But his major problem is he does not come to play every game. IMO he had the chance with Kessel and only played one good game during the time while Bozak was hurt. Just saying

Yeah, Bozak doesn't have bad games.

never said that. Kadri did nothing to take the job away from him.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

If the Leafs could somehow land ROR without out giving up any of the following players, I'd be ecstatic...

Kessel
JVR
Bernier
Rielly
Gardiner
Bozak
Nylander

Anyone else goes in that trade.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2014/07/10/ryan-oreilly-avs-headed-arbitration-really-means/18882/

I think you misspelled Kadri.

Nope. I'd keep Bozak ahead of Kadri any day of the week. He's just a better fit with that top line than Kadri.

This is just never a fair argument to make.  One player has 3100+ more minutes of playing time with Kessel and ~1000 more minutes with JVR.  Give Kadri similar, consistent time with them and it's not a hard argument to make that he'd "fit" just as well.

Until then, it's hard to argue one is a better fit when that player has only ever been given the opportunity to play on the top line while the other hasn't.

Argument isn't whether Kadri is a better player, he has more talent we will all agree with that. His face off skill is not as good. But his major problem is he does not come to play every game. IMO he had the chance with Kessel and only played one good game during the time while Bozak was hurt. Just saying

Yeah, Bozak doesn't have bad games.

never said that. Kadri did nothing to take the job away from him.

I know you didn't say that.  It's ridiculous to hold a player to such a tiny sample size of minutes with other players and if they don't happen to light it up in those minutes determine that it means they aren't good enough to play that spot.  Bozak has had stretches on the 1st line where they have struggled too but for some reason he never has to, or never had to, 'take the job away' from anyone.  When they struggle he isn't shuttled to the 2nd line or called inconsistent in the way that Kadri is.

Since 2009, at 5 on 5, the Leafs have actually scored a greater % of goals for/against with Kadri/Kessel on the ice than Bozak/Kessel.  Kadri simply is not afforded the same length of time with the top line to see what he can do.

 

[freer]

If the Leafs could somehow land ROR without out giving up any of the following players, I'd be ecstatic...

Kessel
JVR
Bernier
Rielly
Gardiner
Bozak
Nylander

Anyone else goes in that trade.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2014/07/10/ryan-oreilly-avs-headed-arbitration-really-means/18882/

I think you misspelled Kadri.

Nope. I'd keep Bozak ahead of Kadri any day of the week. He's just a better fit with that top line than Kadri.

This is just never a fair argument to make.  One player has 3100+ more minutes of playing time with Kessel and ~1000 more minutes with JVR.  Give Kadri similar, consistent time with them and it's not a hard argument to make that he'd "fit" just as well.

Until then, it's hard to argue one is a better fit when that player has only ever been given the opportunity to play on the top line while the other hasn't.

Argument isn't whether Kadri is a better player, he has more talent we will all agree with that. His face off skill is not as good. But his major problem is he does not come to play every game. IMO he had the chance with Kessel and only played one good game during the time while Bozak was hurt. Just saying

Yeah, Bozak doesn't have bad games.

never said that. Kadri did nothing to take the job away from him.

I know you didn't say that.  It's ridiculous to hold a player to such a tiny sample size of minutes with other players and if they don't happen to light it up in those minutes determine that it means they aren't good enough to play that spot.  Bozak has had stretches on the 1st line where they have struggled too but for some reason he never has to, or never had to, 'take the job away' from anyone.  When they struggle he isn't shuttled to the 2nd line or called inconsistent in the way that Kadri is.

Since 2009, at 5 on 5, the Leafs have actually scored a greater % of goals for/against with Kadri/Kessel on the ice than Bozak/Kessel.  Kadri simply is not afforded the same length of time with the top line to see what he can do.

I guess this is where opinions differ. IMO Kadri is lazy and does not come out to play every game. Where again IMO Bozak does. He also too me is better defensively. But I am a "Bozak" fan. So my judgement may be flawed.

 

[Redleaf]

If the Leafs could somehow land ROR without out giving up any of the following players, I'd be ecstatic...

Kessel
JVR
Bernier
Rielly
Gardiner
Bozak
Nylander

Anyone else goes in that trade.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2014/07/10/ryan-oreilly-avs-headed-arbitration-really-means/18882/

I think you misspelled Kadri.

Nope. I'd keep Bozak ahead of Kadri any day of the week. He's just a better fit with that top line than Kadri.

This is just never a fair argument to make.  One player has 3100+ more minutes of playing time with Kessel and ~1000 more minutes with JVR.  Give Kadri similar, consistent time with them and it's not a hard argument to make that he'd "fit" just as well.

Until then, it's hard to argue one is a better fit when that player has only ever been given the opportunity to play on the top line while the other hasn't.

Argument isn't whether Kadri is a better player, he has more talent we will all agree with that. His face off skill is not as good. But his major problem is he does not come to play every game. IMO he had the chance with Kessel and only played one good game during the time while Bozak was hurt. Just saying

Yeah, Bozak doesn't have bad games.

never said that. Kadri did nothing to take the job away from him.

I know you didn't say that.  It's ridiculous to hold a player to such a tiny sample size of minutes with other players and if they don't happen to light it up in those minutes determine that it means they aren't good enough to play that spot.  Bozak has had stretches on the 1st line where they have struggled too but for some reason he never has to, or never had to, 'take the job away' from anyone.  When they struggle he isn't shuttled to the 2nd line or called inconsistent in the way that Kadri is.

Since 2009, at 5 on 5, the Leafs have actually scored a greater % of goals for/against with Kadri/Kessel on the ice than Bozak/Kessel.  Kadri simply is not afforded the same length of time with the top line to see what he can do.

I don't think the 'sample size' argument is really valid in these cases. Like many NHL players trying to rise up the ranks, he was given a small window (time on the 1st line) to show he belonged there, and he turned in a lackluster performance.

Good players just find ways to seize those opportunities when they come around. I'm sure he'll get another chance at it, but he'll need to be more opportunistic next time around. That's just how those situations unfold.

Look at coach Spott for example. One season with the Marlies (small sample size) and he seized his chance and is being promoted to the NHL next year. You'll never have a large enough sample size if you can't show you belong in a short period of time, because you'll be sent back down just as quickly.

 

[moon111]

Bozak gets the puck to Kessel.  Bozak is probably one of the better defensive centers on the team, something Kessel doesn't concern himself greatly with.

 

[bustaheims]

Bozak gets the puck to Kessel.  Bozak is probably one of the better defensive centers on the team, something Kessel doesn't concern himself greatly with.

That's more of a damning statement about the quality of the team than anything in Bozak's favour, as he's an entirely average defensive player.

 

[cabber24]

Derek Roy and Mike Riberio for 1M each... could the Leafs not use one of these guys for C depth , especially at that cost? 1M for Roy seems like a fantastic signing.

I really don't have any faith in the direction made by management this past year. Why can't the Leafs give a low cost chance to player looking for a rebound year?

 

[Nik]

Derek Roy and Mike Riberio for 1M each... could the Leafs not use one of these guys for C depth , especially at that cost? 1M for Roy seems like a fantastic signing.

Both guys probably signed in Nashville because they knew they'd be NHLers there. The Leafs actively want young players like Holland to step up, so it's not a case where they could have just offered a few thousand more and got them, they'd have to convince these guys that they had safe line-up spots.

And Mike Ribeiro and his circus is not someone you bring into a young team for "depth".

 

[Frank E]

Derek Roy and Mike Riberio for 1M each... could the Leafs not use one of these guys for C depth , especially at that cost? 1M for Roy seems like a fantastic signing.

Both guys probably signed in Nashville because they knew they'd be NHLers there. The Leafs actively want young players like Holland to step up, so it's not a case where they could have just offered a few thousand more and got them, they'd have to convince these guys that they had safe line-up spots.

And Mike Ribeiro and his circus is not someone you bring into a young team for "depth".

What circus?  The guy is a bona fide 50 point centre for a million bucks...how could you not want that kind of price/performance?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Derek Roy and Mike Riberio for 1M each... could the Leafs not use one of these guys for C depth , especially at that cost? 1M for Roy seems like a fantastic signing.

Both guys probably signed in Nashville because they knew they'd be NHLers there. The Leafs actively want young players like Holland to step up, so it's not a case where they could have just offered a few thousand more and got them, they'd have to convince these guys that they had safe line-up spots.

And Mike Ribeiro and his circus is not someone you bring into a young team for "depth".

What circus?  The guy is a bona fide 50 point centre for a million bucks...how could you not want that kind of price/performance?

This, I'm assuming:

A source told FOX Sports Arizona's Craig Morgan that Ribeiro was, "late for practices, missed meetings, missed buses and even engaged in a shouting match with Tippett in the locker room after a game in Colorado."

http://www.fiveforhowling.com/2014/6/30/5855414/mike-ribeiro-buy-out-arizona-coyotes

 

[Frank E]

Derek Roy and Mike Riberio for 1M each... could the Leafs not use one of these guys for C depth , especially at that cost? 1M for Roy seems like a fantastic signing.

Both guys probably signed in Nashville because they knew they'd be NHLers there. The Leafs actively want young players like Holland to step up, so it's not a case where they could have just offered a few thousand more and got them, they'd have to convince these guys that they had safe line-up spots.

And Mike Ribeiro and his circus is not someone you bring into a young team for "depth".

What circus?  The guy is a bona fide 50 point centre for a million bucks...how could you not want that kind of price/performance?

This, I'm assuming:

A source told FOX Sports Arizona's Craig Morgan that Ribeiro was, "late for practices, missed meetings, missed buses and even engaged in a shouting match with Tippett in the locker room after a game in Colorado."

http://www.fiveforhowling.com/2014/6/30/5855414/mike-ribeiro-buy-out-arizona-coyotes

I don't care what he's like in the dressing room, points are scored on the ice during games.

This team needs better players, and for 50 points for $1mil, who cares how many practices he misses?

The decision makers need to ignore character and comportment and focus on bringing in players that can make the team win more games.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't care what he's like in the dressing room, points are scored on the ice during games.

This team needs better players, and for 50 points for $1mil, who cares how many practices he misses?

The decision makers need to ignore character and comportment and focus on bringing in players that can make the team win more games.

When a team like the Coyotes who need all the skill up front they can get their hands on and have a very limited budget is willing to spend significant dollars to buy out the 3 remaining seasons on his contract, you have to believe the issues are more serious than him not getting along with people in the locker-room and missing practices. Ribeiro has some significant off-ice issues, and, with a young team, bringing that into the mix can do a lot more damage than his production would add to the team.

 

[bustaheims]

Derek Roy and Mike Riberio for 1M each... could the Leafs not use one of these guys for C depth , especially at that cost? 1M for Roy seems like a fantastic signing.

Roy isn't the player he was a few years ago. He had a major surgery to repair some muscle damage in his legs a couple years ago, and, as a result, he's not the speedster he was when he was having great success in Buffalo. He's now 40ish point guy who is on the small side (and, by that, I mean, he's one of the smaller guys in the league). He may provide good value at $1M, but, he's more likely be a Mason Raymond-esque guy than the Derek Roy you're remembering. With the Leafs, he wouldn't have received the type of ice he needed to be useful. With Nashville, he might.