Official meeting place of the Kadri Cadre

[TML fan]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Just because the player is informed doesn't mean he can handle it.

And you think that thats the reason why in the majority of cases the Leafs couldn't develop first round talent?

That's what I said, isn't it?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like they haven't been successful in the past 45 years.

 

[Corn Flake]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Just because the player is informed doesn't mean he can handle it.

And you think that thats the reason why in the majority of cases the Leafs couldn't develop first round talent?

think of it this way.. if you were 18 years old, coming out of junior and your head is likely as big as your bedroom from all the accolades and attention you've been getting probably since you were 9 years old, how would you deal with being drafted by the most popular franchise in hockey?  You've got dozens of media wanting your every spare second of time, asking for exclusive interviews, wanting to know what you ate for breakfast, writing articles with tags like "franchise savior" etc etc etc.    For a teenage mind, it's difficult to process all that and be able to stay focused on the task at hand, no matter what the team tries to help you with and educate you.  And then, if instant success isn't achieved, the questions and criticism starts and then a whole different dynamic.  If it was you, how would you have handled it as an 18 year old? I know for me it wouldn't have been pretty.

I remember when the Leafs drafted Brad Boyes.... the attention he got was just off the charts, including his time at the WJC's.  The media were so over the top with the whole "future of the franchise" tags and questions it was insane.  His first Leafs camp after that had the same kind of coverage and he was completely awful in it.  He clearly looked like a kid who thought he had to do little to earn an NHL job, which was really out of character for him to be a guy who coasted.  He was demoted from there and it took him a lot of time and some tough seasons to get to the NHL, of course with San Jose. There wasn't anything technically wrong with his development path but the whole "dissapointment" messages were getting very loud after that first and then second failed camp.

All the crap that Kadri had to listen to is just another version of the same thing.  He's got Cherry in one ear telling him how amazing he is and that the team is baiscally screwing him up, and then on the other side he's got the critics - many in the media - calling him fat, too small, too cocky, over rated, etc etc etc. I'm actually amazed he seems to have made it - speaks to his character, IMO.  Most kids wouldn't have handled that well.

I think it takes a bit of a different kind of person to handle the level of attention you would get in this market vs. say Carolina where you can play hockey and not deal with the invasive media attention on a daily basis.

 

[rdowdall]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Just because the player is informed doesn't mean he can handle it.

And you think that thats the reason why in the majority of cases the Leafs couldn't develop first round talent?

think of it this way.. if you were 18 years old, coming out of junior and your head is likely as big as your bedroom from all the accolades and attention you've been getting probably since you were 9 years old, how would you deal with being drafted by the most popular franchise in hockey?  You've got dozens of media wanting your every spare second of time, asking for exclusive interviews, wanting to know what you ate for breakfast, writing articles with tags like "franchise savior" etc etc etc.    For a teenage mind, it's difficult to process all that and be able to stay focused on the task at hand, no matter what the team tries to help you with and educate you.  And then, if instant success isn't achieved, the questions and criticism starts and then a whole different dynamic.  If it was you, how would you have handled it as an 18 year old? I know for me it wouldn't have been pretty.

I remember when the Leafs drafted Brad Boyes.... the attention he got was just off the charts, including his time at the WJC's.  The media were so over the top with the whole "future of the franchise" tags and questions it was insane.  His first Leafs camp after that had the same kind of coverage and he was completely awful in it.  He clearly looked like a kid who thought he had to do little to earn an NHL job, which was really out of character for him to be a guy who coasted.  He was demoted from there and it took him a lot of time and some tough seasons to get to the NHL, of course with San Jose. There wasn't anything technically wrong with his development path but the whole "dissapointment" messages were getting very loud after that first and then second failed camp.

All the crap that Kadri had to listen to is just another version of the same thing.  He's got Cherry in one ear telling him how amazing he is and that the team is baiscally screwing him up, and then on the other side he's got the critics - many in the media - calling him fat, too small, too cocky, over rated, etc etc etc. I'm actually amazed he seems to have made it - speaks to his character, IMO.  Most kids wouldn't have handled that well.

I think it takes a bit of a different kind of person to handle the level of attention you would get in this market vs. say Carolina where you can play hockey and not deal with the invasive media attention on a daily basis.

But then that is on the team.  There needs to be strong leadership within the room and some mentoring that needs to take place.  Burke has been known to sit down with prospects and spell it out for them.  He sat down with Perry and told him that he had to clean up some parts of his game.  He sat down with Frattin and laid out what was going to happen to him if he kept going down the path he was on.  Not sure if he did it with Kadri or not.

Boyes is an interesting one.  The team had guys like Sundin and Roberts so I can't see there being a shortage of mentoring.  Quinn was the coach, and there was this stigma that he didn't like young players, but who knows how much of that was just media driven.

I don't think you can just blame the media for ruining a prospect.  Teams have to adjust for that, and every kid is different and will handle it differently, so I think a team needs to be able to spot warning signs and figure out how to deal with potential problems before they get out of hand.

 

[Kin]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like they haven't been successful in the past 45 years.

But that's got way, way more to do with managerial incompetence than anything else. All blaming the "pressure" does is provide a smokescreen for that incompetence. There's a ton of media pressure on the Habs as well and they've won...what, 10 cups in the same time period? The Yankees, Red Sox, Lakers...if the idea was that media pressure was as corrosive as it's being made out to be then those teams wouldn't be able to develop players and build championship clubs but they seem to actually be alright at it.

Here's a list of the Leafs first round picks over the last 15 years:

Nik Antropov - developed into a good player
Luca Cereda
Brad Boyes - developed into a good player
Carlo Colaiacovo - developed into a good player
Alex Steen - developed into a good player
Tuuka Rask - developed into a good player
Jiri Tlusty - certainly looks like he's going to be a good player
Luke Schenn - Had his struggles, is still 23
Nazem Kadri - looks to be a good player

Then there's Percy, Biggs and Rielly, all of whom are too young to say. I'm sorry but looked at objectively the idea that there's some external, unique factor that affects Leafs players and leaves them unable to develop just has no basis in reality. There's not a single player on that list who got to Toronto and really failed with the club with the possible exception of Tlusty and even then i think any "failure" there has way more to do with the stupid way the club used him rather than any media pressure. Absent Luca Cereda's wonky heart there's not a real bust in the bunch.

Obviously guys like Rask didn't develop as a Leaf and the Leafs didn't always position themselves to reap the biggest benefits from their relatively decent record in the draft but there's really no leg to stand on to try and blame the media when it's really just garden variety incompetence that actually drags the team down.

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't think you can just blame the media for ruining a prospect.  Teams have to adjust for that, and every kid is different and will handle it differently, so I think a team needs to be able to spot warning signs and figure out how to deal with potential problems before they get out of hand.

Not solely blaming the media, but I 100% believe they have an impact on these higher profile picks with all the attention they get.  If a prospect is "ruined" it isn't the media's fault.. it's a combination of that player and the team for sure.  The media can make a problematic situation worse though.  Absolutely a good coach and GM need to set expectations and deal with issues.  Your example of Frattin is a good one and if there were issues with Kadri I'm sure he was clear there too.  The coach change seems to be having  a positive impact on a number of the young players such as Kadri and Franson .. but that isn't to say Wilson wasn't able to deal with other youngstsers since many developed under him successfully.

In the end it comes down to the kid's character, which at the beginning of this discussion was kind of the point... you need kids who can handle the added attention and ego boosting and crushing that goes on without it impacting their progression.  Not an easy thing to do as a teenager.

 

[Corn Flake]

There's not a single player on that list who got to Toronto and really failed with the club with the possible exception of Tlusty and even then i think any "failure" there has way more to do with the stupid way the club used him rather than any media pressure. Absent Luca Cereda's wonky heart there's not a real bust in the bunch.

Obviously guys like Rask didn't develop as a Leaf and the Leafs didn't always position themselves to reap the biggest benefits from their relatively decent record in the draft but there's really no leg to stand on to try and blame the media when it's really just garden variety incompetence that actually drags the team down.

But if they have that this relative track record of success as you suggest, how can you say they are also incompetent? From your list, the draft track record looks pretty good to me.  The development can't be that bad if most of those players achieved what was probably realistic expectations for each of them, right?

I think the problem is excatly that ... realistic expectations.. and clearly the general fan base out there has some lofty ones for just about every 1st round pick that the Leafs draft.  Typically though, it is how quick that player can rise up the org and when they don't, things start to turn a bit sour.  Now that's where the media issue comes in - they help set those lofty expectations and they help fuel criticism when the player doesn't reach them.  Many in the media simply don't get what it takes to develop a player and neither do a good chunk of fans, so when they see Kadri not make the team after 2 camps they get critical of everyone and every thing.  But that same attention early on is right in the face of the player too and I still believe as a teenager that can't impact you.  It doesn't directly cause a player to not work out -as your list clearly points out - but I think it can either stagnate a player or it can draw far more attention to minor setbacks or a lack of progression as being really awful and horrible things. 

Yesterday, Kadri tweeted the cover of the Sun, comapring him to Gilmour... these guys read their press clippings like crazy and that was just one piece of proof.  This stuff gets in their head one way or the other, for good or bad.

 

[Redleaf]

I believe there is some truth to the argument that certain players can dwindle or accelerate under the intense media scrutiny they get playing in Toronto. I think it's a personality thing. Doug Gilmour was a good player in Calgary, but really took his game to another level playing for the Leafs. Larry Murphy was a good defenseman when came to T.O. and essentially lost his confidence and got booed out of town. If you buy into the media, good or bad, and you've got a certain type of personality, it can affect your confidence. Can this argument be quantified in any real manner? Probably not, but I do think it exists.

 

[Kin]

But if they have that this relative track record of success as you suggest, how can you say they are also incompetent?

Well, because putting together a good NHL club isn't just drafting/developing first round picks. Tuuka Rask was a good pick, there was nothing wrong with anything the Leafs did with his development but he never contributed anything in a Leafs uniform because JFJ was an incompetent manager.

From your list, the draft track record looks pretty good to me.  The development can't be that bad if most of those players achieved what was probably realistic expectations for each of them, right?

I don't think the Leafs record of development is bad at all.

I think the problem is excatly that ... realistic expectations.. and clearly the general fan base out there has some lofty ones for just about every 1st round pick that the Leafs draft.  Typically though, it is how quick that player can rise up the org and when they don't, things start to turn a bit sour.  Now that's where the media issue comes in - they help set those lofty expectations and they help fuel criticism when the player doesn't reach them.  Many in the media simply don't get what it takes to develop a player and neither do a good chunk of fans, so when they see Kadri not make the team after 2 camps they get critical of everyone and every thing.  But that same attention early on is right in the face of the player too and I still believe as a teenager that can't impact you.  It doesn't directly cause a player to not work out -as your list clearly points out - but I think it can either stagnate a player or it can draw far more attention to minor setbacks or a lack of progression as being really awful and horrible things.

I agree that there's a lack of patience, I just don't think it's on the part of the fans. I think it's the organization that doesn't show patience with players. It's the organization that sacrifices a lot of their good young players on their altar of never properly rebuilding and trying to always be competitive. Steen, Boyes, Rask...it wasn't the media or the fans who sent them out of town. They didn't get traded because Leafs fans thought they'd be too great.

And along those lines, I think it's that strategy, that the Leafs have essentially engaged in without stop for the better part of 20 years, that creates the atmosphere that surrounds the team far more than any fan opinion or media story. What you classify as impatience on the part of the media/fans I'm more inclined to say is a relatively well-informed fanbase/media being quick to be able to see that the short-cuts aren't taking the team in the right direction. Is it wrong to criticize players like Tlusty/Schenn for immediately stepping in and contributing? Sure. But the reason they were thrown into the fire is, again, the organization's impatience.

I mean, you referred to the media talk about Kadri's physical fitness but let's keep in mind that that really exploded not because Cox or Simmons or whoever wrote an article about Kadri looking out of shape but because Eakins publicly called him out for it. I'm not going to deny that their are elements of the media or the fanbase that sensationalize things with the Leafs, good and bad, but I still think they ultimately get their cues from the atmosphere that the club creates. 

Yesterday, Kadri tweeted the cover of the Sun, comapring him to Gilmour... these guys read their press clippings like crazy and that was just one piece of proof.  This stuff gets in their head one way or the other, for good or bad.

I think it's a separate issue that bears a deeper examination but I don't think that really does prove what you think it does. It was a front page(of the section anyway) bit of nonsense that seemed designed to generate buzz and succeeded. He was bound to get asked about it and it came to his attention. This wasn't him talking about some obscure article in the furthest corner of the web.

So are they aware of the media? Sure. But is there a big difference between the players on the Leafs in that regard and say, the players on any team in a reasonable media market with an interest in hockey? I don't think so. I'm sure Claude Giroux or Patrick Kane or someone would have seen the exact same thing or thereabouts.

 

[Bender]

I believe there is some truth to the argument that certain players can dwindle or accelerate under the intense media scrutiny they get playing in Toronto. I think it's a personality thing. Doug Gilmour was a good player in Calgary, but really took his game to another level playing for the Leafs. Larry Murphy was a good defenseman when came to T.O. and essentially lost his confidence and got booed out of town. If you buy into the media, good or bad, and you've got a certain type of personality, it can affect your confidence. Can this argument be quantified in any real manner? Probably not, but I do think it exists.

I really don't don't think that's evidence for media influencing how players play in a certain market. Players have played terribly on a small market team only to play better in another small market team.
I have to agree with Nik here, there are many many more factors for success or failure before media scrutiny even enters the equation.

 

[Bender]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Just because the player is informed doesn't mean he can handle it.

And you think that thats the reason why in the majority of cases the Leafs couldn't develop first round talent?

That's what I said, isn't it?

Right. But you also didn't give much evidence or a supporting argument.

 

[Kin]

Larry Murphy was a good defenseman when came to T.O. and essentially lost his confidence and got booed out of town.

Except that's just not really true, is it? Larry Murphy wasn't perfect before he came to Toronto and while in Toronto he was still a very good offensive defenseman. The booing was stupid but the city didn't turn him into a bad player, fans just had unrealistic expectations.

 

[Redleaf]

I believe there is some truth to the argument that certain players can dwindle or accelerate under the intense media scrutiny they get playing in Toronto. I think it's a personality thing. Doug Gilmour was a good player in Calgary, but really took his game to another level playing for the Leafs. Larry Murphy was a good defenseman when came to T.O. and essentially lost his confidence and got booed out of town. If you buy into the media, good or bad, and you've got a certain type of personality, it can affect your confidence. Can this argument be quantified in any real manner? Probably not, but I do think it exists.

I really don't don't think that's evidence for media influencing how players play in a certain market. Players have played terribly on a small market team only to play better in another small market team.
I have to agree with Nik here, there are many many more factors for success or failure before media scrutiny even enters the equation.

So, you are saying it enters into the equation at some point?

 

[Redleaf]

Larry Murphy was a good defenseman when came to T.O. and essentially lost his confidence and got booed out of town.

Except that's just not really true, is it? Larry Murphy wasn't perfect before he came to Toronto and while in Toronto he was still a very good offensive defenseman. The booing was stupid but the city didn't turn him into a bad player, fans just had unrealistic expectations.

To me it appeared that he starting making more gaffes on the ice. At the tail part of his time in Toronto it certainly looked like he had lost his confidence. Could that have happened anywhere? Sure it could have, but I doubt it would have been magnified by the media as much as it was in Toronto.

 

[Kin]

So, you are saying it enters into the equation at some point?

Not to me but, sure. There's a lot of media attention in Toronto. There are a million distractions in NYC. Great nightlife in LA. Every market is going to have it's peculiar external factors and some guys will respond well to them and others won't. Where I think the credibility gets stretched, though, is the idea that the media attention in Toronto in that regard is either A) unique or B) conclusively negative.

 

[Andy007]

Fans, I guess, were expecting a 70-80 point defenceman, which Murphy was the two preceding years in Pittsburgh. He scored 60 and 40 in two seasons with Toronto and was around that range with Detroit afterwards. The only thing that bothers me about the whole Murphy 'debacle' was the idea that he played so much better in Detroit.

 

[Kin]

To me it appeared that he starting making more gaffes on the ice.

I think what really happened is that Murphy began to enter the downswing of his career and the Leafs got significantly worse which thrust him into a more and more prominent role. If you look at the difference between the team Murphy joined and the one he left...they traded Doug Gilmour and Dave Andreychuk and Dave Ellett and Bill Berg and basically every remnant of the two conference finals teams as they slid into the bottom of the league. I think fans, devoid of basically anyone else to blame, started blaming Murphy for no real reason.

Either way, I don't think it affected his play much. He was essentially the same player in Detroit, he was just surrounded by better players and exposed less.

 

[Andy007]

To me it appeared that he starting making more gaffes on the ice.

I think what really happened is that Murphy began to enter the downswing of his career and the Leafs got significantly worse which thrust him into a more and more prominent role. If you look at the difference between the team Murphy joined and the one he left...they traded Doug Gilmour and Dave Andreychuk and Dave Ellett and Bill Berg and basically every remnant of the two conference finals teams as they slid into the bottom of the league. I think fans, devoid of basically anyone else to blame, started blaming Murphy for no real reason.

Either way, I don't think it affected his play much. He was essentially the same player in Detroit, he was just surrounded by better players and exposed less.

Agreed. He actually put together a better season his 1st in Toronto than any in Detroit imo.

 

[Kin]

Fans, I guess, were expecting a 70-80 point defenceman, which Murphy was the two preceding years in Pittsburgh.

I think it was that, the big salary and, as I said above, the fact that the team around him crumbled. Still, I'd have loved to have spoken to a fan that didn't think Murphy's production might drop considering he put up those 70-80 point seasons on the point of a power play that also featured two of the five best offensive players of all-time.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I actually believe this is why the Leafs have a hard time developing players, particularly 1st round picks.

That said, I think Kadri is one of the few who can actually handle the pressure.

I kind of think its a bit crazy to think that the media pressure makes it hard for the Leafs to develop players. Im sure they tell their prospect beforehand to ignore what's written about them and focus on playing their game. Its not like this is anything new or that the organization doesn't know how to deal with it.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like they haven't been successful in the past 45 years.

But that's got way, way more to do with managerial incompetence than anything else. All blaming the "pressure" does is provide a smokescreen for that incompetence. There's a ton of media pressure on the Habs as well and they've won...what, 10 cups in the same time period? The Yankees, Red Sox, Lakers...if the idea was that media pressure was as corrosive as it's being made out to be then those teams wouldn't be able to develop players and build championship clubs but they seem to actually be alright at it.

Here's a list of the Leafs first round picks over the last 15 years:

Nik Antropov - developed into a good player
Luca Cereda
Brad Boyes - developed into a good player
Carlo Colaiacovo - developed into a good player
Alex Steen - developed into a good player
Tuuka Rask - developed into a good player
Jiri Tlusty - certainly looks like he's going to be a good player
Luke Schenn - Had his struggles, is still 23
Nazem Kadri - looks to be a good player

Then there's Percy, Biggs and Rielly, all of whom are too young to say. I'm sorry but looked at objectively the idea that there's some external, unique factor that affects Leafs players and leaves them unable to develop just has no basis in reality. There's not a single player on that list who got to Toronto and really failed with the club with the possible exception of Tlusty and even then i think any "failure" there has way more to do with the stupid way the club used him rather than any media pressure. Absent Luca Cereda's wonky heart there's not a real bust in the bunch.

Obviously guys like Rask didn't develop as a Leaf and the Leafs didn't always position themselves to reap the biggest benefits from their relatively decent record in the draft but there's really no leg to stand on to try and blame the media when it's really just garden variety incompetence that actually drags the team down.

I agree completely.