Playoff push trade pickups...

[Kin]

I don't think Nylander is a guy that avoids contact. I think he's a guy that just decides to take shifts or games off. Goes invisible for stretches when he's not moving his feet. But he's not the first player to display that type of game. As has been mentioned, Kessel has been guilty of it his whole career. It hasn't hurt his teams in the playoffs.

Not that I think what I'm about to say is counter to anything you're saying here but, and I think I've said this many times on this board in defense of many players, but the exact same criticism gets thrown at effectively all offensively skilled players who don't throw their bodies around. People said it about Kessel, yes, but they also said it about Sundin. They said it about Jagr. I, with no lie, heard Edmonton fans during their weakest moments this year say that McDavid doesn't add a lot when he's not scoring.

I can't particularly speak to the validity of people's reads of various players efforts but I don't think anyone in the league, body-masher or no, is 100% on all of their shifts or games. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I don't think Nylander is a guy that avoids contact. I think he's a guy that just decides to take shifts or games off. Goes invisible for stretches when he's not moving his feet. But he's not the first player to display that type of game. As has been mentioned, Kessel has been guilty of it his whole career. It hasn't hurt his teams in the playoffs.

Not that I think what I'm about to say is counter to anything you're saying here but, and I think I've said this many times on this board in defense of many players, but the exact same criticism gets thrown at effectively all offensively skilled players who don't throw their bodies around. People said it about Kessel, yes, but they also said it about Sundin. They said it about Jagr. I, with no lie, heard Edmonton fans during their weakest moments this year say that McDavid doesn't add a lot when he's not scoring.

I can't particularly speak to the validity of people's reads of various players efforts but I don't think anyone in the league, body-masher or no, is 100% on all of their shifts or games.

Yes the same has certainly been said about Sundin and Jagr. But, I don't know that I'd put Nylander anywhere in Jagr's hemisphere talent wise. Or Sundin's for that matter.

When I say invisible in regards to Nylander, I'm talking more down the path of Kovalev(top of my mind and Kovalev is certainly more guilty of it). I'll fully admit that my read on Nylander is an eye test reading of the player so I have no data to back it up. I am not expecting a player to be engaged 100% of the time. It's expected for players to have shifts or games off.
I accept Nylander's shortcomings though. Like I said, it's the difference between him and Matthews value wise IMHO. Matthews does have the odd bad game but tends to bounce back quickly. Nylander tends to take long stretches off. Like I said, I don't necessarily hold it against him. Nylander is an extremely talented player that is sometimes not engaged. The question becomes, what value do you get from trading him that will make you a better team. I don't think you do. You're not trading for a team's bonafide #1 goalie. You're not even getting their top notch goalie prospect. The days of teams trading Tukka Rask or Roberto Luongo are mostly gone. So, how does moving Nylander make you better other than to shake the tree.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

People: We need to trade for a top-6 forward

Also people: Trade Nylander for a defenceman

 

[Kin]

Yes the same has certainly been said about Sundin and Jagr. But, I don't know that I'd put Nylander anywhere in Jagr's hemisphere talent wise. Or Sundin's for that matter.

No, me either. My point wasn't that he was their equals but that the difference between them is that they were better scorers so they had fewer games where it looked like they didn't contribute much and not that on the nights where Sundin and Jagr weren't scoring they were out there wowing people with their defensive play and non-stop hard skating(although I think Sundin was pretty good defensively).

 

[bustaheims]

No, me either. My point wasn't that he was their equals but that the difference between them is that they were better scorers so they had fewer games where it looked like they didn't contribute much and not that on the nights where Sundin and Jagr weren't scoring they were out there wowing people with their defensive play and non-stop hard skating(although I think Sundin was pretty good defensively).

Sundin developed into a pretty good defensive player, for sure. So did Jagr, eventually, but, for large portions of his career, he had to be introduced to his goaltender, because he spent so little time in the defensive zone, and rarely went past the top of the circles.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Yes the same has certainly been said about Sundin and Jagr. But, I don't know that I'd put Nylander anywhere in Jagr's hemisphere talent wise. Or Sundin's for that matter.

No, me either. My point wasn't that he was their equals but that the difference between them is that they were better scorers so they had fewer games where it looked like they didn't contribute much and not that on the nights where Sundin and Jagr weren't scoring they were out there wowing people with their defensive play and non-stop hard skating(although I think Sundin was pretty good defensively).

I agree with all of this 100%.

I actually don't have a big problem with Nylander's game. As has been mentioned repeatedly here, Nylander is always near the top of take aways on the team. Defense isn't only played in the defensive zone. It's played in all 3. If you take the puck away at the opposing teams hashmarks, you've performed a great defensive play.

 

[Kin]

No, me either. My point wasn't that he was their equals but that the difference between them is that they were better scorers so they had fewer games where it looked like they didn't contribute much and not that on the nights where Sundin and Jagr weren't scoring they were out there wowing people with their defensive play and non-stop hard skating(although I think Sundin was pretty good defensively).

Sundin developed into a pretty good defensive player, for sure. So did Jagr, eventually, but, for large portions of his career, he had to be introduced to his goaltender, because he spent so little time in the defensive zone, and rarely went past the top of the circles.

I actually think this is why the eye test on a lot of players doesn't work. It's not so much that what people pick up on is wrong, necessarily, it's that they aren't taking in the data necessary to put what they see in its proper context.

It's like the old "#1 defenseman" debate we used to have. People would say McCabe, or whoever, couldn't be a #1 defenseman because he made too many mistakes because they were always watching the Leafs and would see all of his mistakes. Then they would compare him to the defensemen they only saw a couple times a year(or, really, in their head against Ray Bourque or Bobby Orr) and come to bad conclusions. Then you bring in someone like Dion Phaneuf and, all of a sudden, turns out Phaneuf makes mistakes too.

 

[bustaheims]

I actually don't have a big problem with Nylander's game. As has been mentioned repeatedly here, Nylander is always near the top of take aways on the team. Defense isn't only played in the defensive zone. It's played in all 3. If you take the puck away at the opposing teams hashmarks, you've performed a great defensive play.

This is something I think a lot of people don't fully understand. Defence is a team game that's played across all 200 feet of the ice. The best defensive plays keeps the puck out of the defensive zone. Nylander's defensive focus is on preventing the other team from having the puck - which, when he's successful, has a much larger impact than good positioning in the defensive zone, blocking shots, throwing hits, etc.

 

[rdowdall]

No, me either. My point wasn't that he was their equals but that the difference between them is that they were better scorers so they had fewer games where it looked like they didn't contribute much and not that on the nights where Sundin and Jagr weren't scoring they were out there wowing people with their defensive play and non-stop hard skating(although I think Sundin was pretty good defensively).

Sundin developed into a pretty good defensive player, for sure. So did Jagr, eventually, but, for large portions of his career, he had to be introduced to his goaltender, because he spent so little time in the defensive zone, and rarely went past the top of the circles.

I actually think this is why the eye test on a lot of players doesn't work. It's not so much that what people pick up on is wrong, necessarily, it's that they aren't taking in the data necessary to put what they see in its proper context.

It's like the old "#1 defenseman" debate we used to have. People would say McCabe, or whoever, couldn't be a #1 defenseman because he made too many mistakes because they were always watching the Leafs and would see all of his mistakes. Then they would compare him to the defensemen they only saw a couple times a year(or, really, in their head against Ray Bourque or Bobby Orr) and come to bad conclusions. Then you bring in someone like Dion Phaneuf and, all of a sudden, turns out Phaneuf makes mistakes too.

This is a great point.  We focus on what the Leafs do, and not what players on other teams do.  I have seen Chris Pronger and Nik Lidstrom have bad games.  Still thought that they were great players.  Any problems with the Leafs are not one player specific.   

 

[L K]

I actually don't have a big problem with Nylander's game. As has been mentioned repeatedly here, Nylander is always near the top of take aways on the team. Defense isn't only played in the defensive zone. It's played in all 3. If you take the puck away at the opposing teams hashmarks, you've performed a great defensive play.

This is something I think a lot of people don't fully understand. Defence is a team game that's played across all 200 feet of the ice. The best defensive plays keeps the puck out of the defensive zone. Nylander's defensive focus is on preventing the other team from having the puck - which, when he's successful, has a much larger impact than good positioning in the defensive zone, blocking shots, throwing hits, etc.

I still think he's hurt...or dealing with post COVID issues.  I'm not seeing a lack of effort from him.  I'm seeing a lot of plays where Nylander isn't breaking away from guys.  He's not necessarily the fastest player on the ice but when he has the puck on his stick he's really elite at being able to one hand the puck and keep guys away from the puck.  I'm not seeing him get that breakaway pace in his game and his legs (or lungs) are letting him down there.

 

[Kin]

This is a great point.  We focus on what the Leafs do, and not what players on other teams do.  I have seen Chris Pronger and Nik Lidstrom have bad games.  Still thought that they were great players.  Any problems with the Leafs are not one player specific. 

Thing is it kind of strikes at one of our central conceits as sports fans. If we watch 100 or so games a year we think of ourselves as really knowledgeable and informed when we're really still just taking in an incredibly small % of the games being played, giving us nowhere near the necessary data needed to rank players appropriately by any sort of subjective measure.

 

[bustaheims]

I still think he's hurt...or dealing with post COVID issues.  I'm not seeing a lack of effort from him.  I'm seeing a lot of plays where Nylander isn't breaking away from guys.  He's not necessarily the fastest player on the ice but when he has the puck on his stick he's really elite at being able to one hand the puck and keep guys away from the puck.  I'm not seeing him get that breakaway pace in his game and his legs (or lungs) are letting him down there.

I suspect you might be on to something. We're also just coming out of the "dog days" of the season, where it's not unusual to see uneven performances and such. The games the rest of the way will be much more informative.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't think Nylander is a guy that avoids contact. I think he's a guy that just decides to take shifts or games off. Goes invisible for stretches when he's not moving his feet. But he's not the first player to display that type of game. As has been mentioned, Kessel has been guilty of it his whole career. It hasn't hurt his teams in the playoffs.

Not that I think what I'm about to say is counter to anything you're saying here but, and I think I've said this many times on this board in defense of many players, but the exact same criticism gets thrown at effectively all offensively skilled players who don't throw their bodies around. People said it about Kessel, yes, but they also said it about Sundin. They said it about Jagr. I, with no lie, heard Edmonton fans during their weakest moments this year say that McDavid doesn't add a lot when he's not scoring.

I can't particularly speak to the validity of people's reads of various players efforts but I don't think anyone in the league, body-masher or no, is 100% on all of their shifts or games.

Yes the same has certainly been said about Sundin and Jagr. But, I don't know that I'd put Nylander anywhere in Jagr's hemisphere talent wise. Or Sundin's for that matter.

Not that it really matters, but I don't recall the Sundin critics saying he took games off.  They didn't like him because he didn't use his size that way they thought he should a la Salming or [fill in Canadian body-masher name].

 

[L K]

I still think he's hurt...or dealing with post COVID issues.  I'm not seeing a lack of effort from him.  I'm seeing a lot of plays where Nylander isn't breaking away from guys.  He's not necessarily the fastest player on the ice but when he has the puck on his stick he's really elite at being able to one hand the puck and keep guys away from the puck.  I'm not seeing him get that breakaway pace in his game and his legs (or lungs) are letting him down there.

I suspect you might be on to something. We're also just coming out of the "dog days" of the season, where it's not unusual to see uneven performances and such. The games the rest of the way will be much more informative.

We should probably also keep in mind that Nylander essentially a top 50 scorer in the league.  He's playing on the second line and scoring at the pace of a 2nd or 3rd best player on a team.  Definitely could be getting more out of him and its the defensive consistency that is really hurting the 2nd line right now but the expectations are so high for an otherwise fantastic player.

 

[Bullfrog]

No, me either. My point wasn't that he was their equals but that the difference between them is that they were better scorers so they had fewer games where it looked like they didn't contribute much and not that on the nights where Sundin and Jagr weren't scoring they were out there wowing people with their defensive play and non-stop hard skating(although I think Sundin was pretty good defensively).

Sundin developed into a pretty good defensive player, for sure. So did Jagr, eventually, but, for large portions of his career, he had to be introduced to his goaltender, because he spent so little time in the defensive zone, and rarely went past the top of the circles.

I remember a story my bro told me of a game in Edm (where he lives) (not sure what team Jagr was on at the time. NYR?) Anyway, Jagr had a shift in the offensive zone. Puck went the other way, he changed, puck got turned over 5 seconds later and headed back towards Edm's zone, he literally grabbed his own player to stop him getting on teh ice and jumped back on the ice; puck got turned over, he jumped back on to the bench.

 

[rdowdall]

I actually don't have a big problem with Nylander's game. As has been mentioned repeatedly here, Nylander is always near the top of take aways on the team. Defense isn't only played in the defensive zone. It's played in all 3. If you take the puck away at the opposing teams hashmarks, you've performed a great defensive play.

This is something I think a lot of people don't fully understand. Defence is a team game that's played across all 200 feet of the ice. The best defensive plays keeps the puck out of the defensive zone. Nylander's defensive focus is on preventing the other team from having the puck - which, when he's successful, has a much larger impact than good positioning in the defensive zone, blocking shots, throwing hits, etc.

I still think he's hurt...or dealing with post COVID issues.  I'm not seeing a lack of effort from him.  I'm seeing a lot of plays where Nylander isn't breaking away from guys.  He's not necessarily the fastest player on the ice but when he has the puck on his stick he's really elite at being able to one hand the puck and keep guys away from the puck.  I'm not seeing him get that breakaway pace in his game and his legs (or lungs) are letting him down there.

Plus I think that because he is labouring to make plays that would normally come a lot easier to him, he is having more mental lapses in the game where he throws the puck into am area he didn't mean too.

 

[herman]

It also doesn?t help that when he does make an OZ play, it?s going to the team leader or 3rd place forward in giveaways at 5v5.

 

[herman]

1) Tavares-Nylander are struggling; not with putting up points necessarily, but in keeping the puck out of their zone
2) Nylander is taking most of the blame because that?s easiest, especially when the puck goes in (as it has been quite easily of late)
3) People have been defending Tavares with: ?at least he wins face-offs and tries hard every night?

To which I?d say:
1) yes, in the DZ, Nylander is only good when the puck is loose and he sweeps in to sort it out, but doesn?t do much individually to free pucks. Now let?s see who has been turning over the puck a lot to cause this DZ time and rush chances against? hmm
2) Nylander and Keefe both know he is better motivated by the ?stick? approach. He makes plenty of good defensive plays in the OZ/NZ that largely go unmentioned, and dangerous assists that never get realized by linemates
3) who takes the faceoff is a coaching decision; great that Tavares is largely winning them as usual, but Nylander has been a plus-faceoff player previously when helping Matthews on his weak side. As for Tavares? effort, I?d say both players are working hard. Tavares just skates like a walrus on land, so of course it looks like he?s working hard! He makes it look harder than it should be! Nylander put in a lot of work to make his stride efficient and appear easy, so he tends to get back into plays just enough to make it look like he failed to make a play, rather than being offscreen like everyone else.

Anyway, separate them. Match their linemates to suit their play styles.

 

[princedpw]

1) Tavares-Nylander are struggling; not with putting up points necessarily, but in keeping the puck out of their zone
2) Nylander is taking most of the blame because that?s easiest, especially when the puck goes in (as it has been quite easily of late)
3) People have been defending Tavares with: ?at least he wins face-offs and tries hard every night?

To which I?d say:
1) yes, in the DZ, Nylander is only good when the puck is loose and he sweeps in to sort it out, but doesn?t do much individually to free pucks. Now let?s see who has been turning over the puck a lot to cause this DZ time and rush chances against? hmm
2) Nylander and Keefe both know he is better motivated by the ?stick? approach. He makes plenty of good defensive plays in the OZ/NZ that largely go unmentioned, and dangerous assists that never get realized by linemates
3) who takes the faceoff is a coaching decision; great that Tavares is largely winning them as usual, but Nylander has been a plus-faceoff player previously when helping Matthews on his weak side. As for Tavares? effort, I?d say both players are working hard. Tavares just skates like a walrus on land, so of course it looks like he?s working hard! He makes it look harder than it should be! Nylander put in a lot of work to make his stride efficient and appear easy, so he tends to get back into plays just enough to make it look like he failed to make a play, rather than being offscreen like everyone else.

Anyway, separate them. Match their linemates to suit their play styles.

I can see Tavares working well grindery types that can cycle and crash the net with him but also have enough speed to carry through the NZ and get on top of defenders fast like Kase and Mikheyev (or throw in Marner to generate chances).

Where does Willy fit?

 

[Bullfrog]

Where does Willy fit?

1st line RW