R2, G3: Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - May 7th, 6:30pm - SN, Fan 590

[Bender]

Would anyone be against in retaining a portion of Tavares' salary and dump a 1st to get out of it? I don't think it's that unreasonable to send him to a team that needs to hit the cap floor and could use a marquee player to fill the stands.

Very much against, yes. He?s still a 30th goal, near point a game player. You?re not giving that away with a high value draft pick. That?s just madness brought on by anger.

It really isn't, especially considering he's probably the least valuable amongst the core four. Do we get rid of Nylander instead? I'm open to suggestions, but running back the core is just insane at this point.

It didn't look insane after the TB series.  Funny how fast the turtle can flip back shell-down.

1) It really doesnt matter what they did in the TB series if they get swept in round 2

2) They were lucky to win Round 1

3) They've won one playoff game in regulation


Winning a round is meaningless if you get rolled. Florida thought the same thing last year.

 

[bustaheims]

Would anyone be against in retaining a portion of Tavares' salary and dump a 1st to get out of it? I don't think it's that unreasonable to send him to a team that needs to hit the cap floor and could use a marquee player to fill the stands.

Very much against, yes. He?s still a 30th goal, near point a game player. You?re not giving that away with a high value draft pick. That?s just madness brought on by anger.

It really isn't, especially considering he's probably the least valuable amongst the core four. Do we get rid of Nylander instead? I'm open to suggestions, but running back the core is just insane at this point.

I'm not saying don't trade Tavares. I'm saying giving him away while retaining salary and sacrificing a 1st round pick for the privilege of doing so it absolutely bonkers and in no way helps the team get better. It's an irrational suggestion. It's pure madness.

 

[Bender]

Would anyone be against in retaining a portion of Tavares' salary and dump a 1st to get out of it? I don't think it's that unreasonable to send him to a team that needs to hit the cap floor and could use a marquee player to fill the stands.

Very much against, yes. He?s still a 30th goal, near point a game player. You?re not giving that away with a high value draft pick. That?s just madness brought on by anger.

It really isn't, especially considering he's probably the least valuable amongst the core four. Do we get rid of Nylander instead? I'm open to suggestions, but running back the core is just insane at this point.

I'm not saying don't trade Tavares. I'm saying giving him away while retaining salary and sacrificing a 1st round pick for the privilege of doing so it absolutely bonkers and in no way helps the team get better. It's an irrational suggestion. It's pure madness.

Everyone is saying he's immovable but we saw all manner of players moved in the salary cap era, and this is a starting point of discussion. In some ways moving off his $11m and declining value with some (not 50%) retention may be better if it means we keep Auston/Willy/Marner and are still able to have let's say $8m in cap space for more younger but capable depth pieces.

I think keeping the younger players together makes a lot more sense and may incentivize them to resign and stay longer term than keeping Tavares but trading Nylander or Marner. You find a capable 2C at $5m that gels with Willy and you may have solved a big problem, which is Tavares and Willy not working and you have money left over.

It's easy to criticize something when there's no counter proposal.

 

[bustaheims]

Everyone is saying he's immovable but we saw all manner of players moved in the salary cap era, and this is a starting point of discussion. In some ways moving off his $11m and declining value with some (not 50%) retention may be better if it means we keep Auston/Willy/Marner and are still able to have let's say $8m in cap space for more younger but capable depth pieces.

I think keeping the younger players together makes a lot more sense and may incentivize them to resign and stay longer term than keeping Tavares but trading Nylander or Marner. You find a capable 2C at $5m that gels with Willy and you may have solved a big problem, which is Tavares and Willy not working and you have money left over.

It's easy to criticize something when there's no counter proposal.

Your proposal weakens the team's asset pool and relies on other theoretical moves to improve. That's not a strong basis for anything, and, quite frankly, doesn't require a counter proposal to be criticized. Attaching a 1st round pick to dump Tavares - a still very valuable player - is not something that should even be remotely be considered. It's really that bad a suggestion.

He's not immovable because of his cap hit or his performance. He's immovable because he has a full NMC and will almost certainly block any trade from happening.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It should be worth noting that the players to some degree have a say here too. Tavares is the obvious one with his NMC, but Nylander's future intentions could force our hand one way or another. He'll be eligible for an extension on July 1st. If he's open to signing a pretty team friendly deal it would certainly make keeping him more appealing. But if he's asking for the moon (or just isn't open to negotiations which could signal he's leaning toward testing the market) then a trade starts to make a lot more sense for the Leafs. And as much as I'd hope Nylander would be leaning toward the former it's entirely possible that won't be the case.

 

[Bill_Berg]

It should be worth noting that the players to some degree have a say here too. Tavares is the obvious one with his NMC, but Nylander's future intentions could force our hand one way or another. He'll be eligible for an extension on July 1st. If he's open to signing a pretty team friendly deal it would certainly make keeping him more appealing. But if he's asking for the moon (or just isn't open to negotiations which could signal he's leaning toward testing the market) then a trade starts to make a lot more sense for the Leafs. And as much as I'd hope Nylander would be leaning toward the former it's entirely possible that won't be the case.

I wonder how much a devastating 2nd round loss will contribute to Matthews and Nylander declining an extension this summer. Maybe they'll want to bail after all this losing.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

It should be worth noting that the players to some degree have a say here too. Tavares is the obvious one with his NMC, but Nylander's future intentions could force our hand one way or another. He'll be eligible for an extension on July 1st. If he's open to signing a pretty team friendly deal it would certainly make keeping him more appealing. But if he's asking for the moon (or just isn't open to negotiations which could signal he's leaning toward testing the market) then a trade starts to make a lot more sense for the Leafs. And as much as I'd hope Nylander would be leaning toward the former it's entirely possible that won't be the case.

I wonder how much a devastating 2nd round loss will contribute to Matthews and Nylander declining an extension this summer. Maybe they'll want to bail after all this losing.

I could see Nylander testing what he can get on the open market in free agency.  He was asking for $8.5 on his last contract if I remember correctly. I think he could get that on the open market. 

 

[bustaheims]

I could see Nylander testing what he can get on the open market in free agency.  He was asking for $8.5 on his last contract if I remember correctly. I think he could get that on the open market. 

With his production over the last couple years, he'll get that easily.

 

[Kin]

Everyone is saying he's immovable but we saw all manner of players moved in the salary cap era, and this is a starting point of discussion. In some ways moving off his $11m and declining value with some (not 50%) retention may be better if it means we keep Auston/Willy/Marner and are still able to have let's say $8m in cap space for more younger but capable depth pieces.

I think keeping the younger players together makes a lot more sense and may incentivize them to resign and stay longer term than keeping Tavares but trading Nylander or Marner. You find a capable 2C at $5m that gels with Willy and you may have solved a big problem, which is Tavares and Willy not working and you have money left over.

It's easy to criticize something when there's no counter proposal.

Your proposal weakens the team's asset pool and relies on other theoretical moves to improve. That's not a strong basis for anything, and, quite frankly, doesn't require a counter proposal to be criticized. Attaching a 1st round pick to dump Tavares - a still very valuable player - is not something that should even be remotely be considered. It's really that bad a suggestion.

He's not immovable because of his cap hit or his performance. He's immovable because he has a full NMC and will almost certainly block any trade from happening.

In addition to all of this the central lesson of the Tavares deal, to this point anyway, should be that trying to improve the team via free agency almost always results in getting bad price performance no matter how good the player is.

Cap space is lovely but it's really not a great avenue to team improvement.

 

[azzurri63]

I think management seriously needs to look at overhauling this team. I honestly feel we may lose some of these stars for nothing so in my opinion make some trades and recoup some young talent and/or picks. Dubas has traded a lot away and we need to restock the cupboard. Game 3 was the last straw with this bunch for me. When you're down 2-0 in a series and in probably the biggest game of the year and not show up what else do you need to figure out. Talent on this team is probably above any other team still playing but again this core has demonstrated it's just not built for playoff hockey. Most of us probably couldn't name 5 Kraken but it just shows you with good work ethic, grit, determination, coaching etc that talent alone doesn't win you a cup. If Leaf management at some point doesn't look at trading the core it's going to be pretty dismal watching this team due to what Dubas has done over the last say 3 years.

 

[Kin]

Winning a round is meaningless if you get rolled. Florida thought the same thing last year.

Yeah, I still feel like that's not a great reading of what Florida really did. Florida brought back a team that was pretty similar to last year's team because they clearly thought they had a group they could build around. The Huberdeau trade made sense outside of their playoff loss because they were maximizing the value of an asset coming off a career year and flipping him and another valuable piece for a younger player.

Overreacting to the Leafs' last three games would be one thing but I think it would compound the bad decisions if you're also overreacting to the decisions of a Florida team that still hasn't won anything meaningful and are as just as lucky to be up 3-0 right now as the Leafs were to get by Tampa.

The Leafs won't get anywhere constantly trying to build a team in the style of whoever knocked them out of the playoffs last. Really the only smart thing for them to do is build the best team they can and rolling the dice.

 

[Kin]

Most of us probably couldn't name 5 Kraken but it just shows you with good work ethic, grit, determination, coaching etc that talent alone doesn't win you a cup.

Admittedly I'm not a scientist but it would seem to me that the lesson of the Kraken this year is that any team can get beat by a less talented team even if they, like the only team the Kraken have beaten in a series, indisputably have the talent and mental make-up to win a cup.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

I think management seriously needs to look at overhauling this team. I honestly feel we may lose some of these stars for nothing so in my opinion make some trades and recoup some young talent and/or picks. Dubas has traded a lot away and we need to restock the cupboard. Game 3 was the last straw with this bunch for me. When you're down 2-0 in a series and in probably the biggest game of the year and not show up what else do you need to figure out. Talent on this team is probably above any other team still playing but again this core has demonstrated it's just not built for playoff hockey. Most of us probably couldn't name 5 Kraken but it just shows you with good work ethic, grit, determination, coaching etc that talent alone doesn't win you a cup. If Leaf management at some point doesn't look at trading the core it's going to be pretty dismal watching this team due to what Dubas has done over the last say 3 years.

Leafs have no patience.  I thought they would take the patient approach when they drafted Matthews.  But nope.  Lou Lam immediately traded a first rounder for Andersen, which getting rid of the first rounder and making the team marginally better messed it all up.  Then Dubas continued the trend of dealing draft picks like candy and here we are.

 

[azzurri63]

Most of us probably couldn't name 5 Kraken but it just shows you with good work ethic, grit, determination, coaching etc that talent alone doesn't win you a cup.

Admittedly I'm not a scientist but it would seem to me that the lesson of the Kraken this year is that any team can get beat by a less talented team even if they, like the only team the Kraken have beaten in a series, indisputably have the talent and mental make-up to win a cup.

I honestly felt and I said it after beating TB even not playing their best hockey that getting that monkey off their back they would play better in round 2. Florida I think is easier to play against than TB and with their more free wheeling style thought it would play into our hands. We were unlucky to go down 2-0 but think that was due to goaltending in my opinion. We've seen this story before with this core and at some point you have to move on. Some say give them more time they'll finally figure it out but I don't think so. As a fan it's pretty demoralizing watching guys making 11 million a season and do absolutely sweet f all.

 

[Kin]

I honestly felt and I said it after beating TB even not playing their best hockey that getting that monkey off their back they would play better in round 2. Florida I think is easier to play against than TB and with their more free wheeling style thought it would play into our hands. We were unlucky to go down 2-0 but think that was due to goaltending in my opinion. We've seen this story before with this core and at some point you have to move on. Some say give them more time they'll finally figure it out but I don't think so. As a fan it's pretty demoralizing watching guys making 11 million a season and do absolutely sweet f all.

I can also respond to posts without addressing anything you actually said!

Also, we should all live our lives according to the Hot Hand Fallacy and its inverse! What a smart way to go about things!

 

[Zee]

Woll had an 11 game winning streak with the Marlies this season.  Cue that up for the Leafs and we're within 1 win of the Stanley Cup.  Let's go!

 

[Bender]

Winning a round is meaningless if you get rolled. Florida thought the same thing last year.

Yeah, I still feel like that's not a great reading of what Florida really did. Florida brought back a team that was pretty similar to last year's team because they clearly thought they had a group they could build around. The Huberdeau trade made sense outside of their playoff loss because they were maximizing the value of an asset coming off a career year and flipping him and another valuable piece for a younger player.

Overreacting to the Leafs' last three games would be one thing but I think it would compound the bad decisions if you're also overreacting to the decisions of a Florida team that still hasn't won anything meaningful and are as just as lucky to be up 3-0 right now as the Leafs were to get by Tampa.

The Leafs won't get anywhere constantly trying to build a team in the style of whoever knocked them out of the playoffs last. Really the only smart thing for them to do is build the best team they can and rolling the dice.

Ok, but if the technically best team is the core 4 what would you say to that? And if their deals expire and some of them walk for nothing because instead of trading them because they iced the best team, what then? Time moves on for everyone and time does eventually run out.

 

[Kin]

Ok, but if the technically best team is the core 4 what would you say to that?

I'd say that any team is more than its 4 best players and work needs to be done to improve the supporting cast in the medium and short term.

And if their deals expire and some of them walk for nothing because instead of trading them because they iced the best team, what then?

Then that would represent a decision made by whoever is the GM at the time. Nobody is blindsided by a player not signing an extension and if some of the guys currently on the team don't want to re-sign it may be time to look at moving them. That said, I think we'd need to be realistic about the fact that departures like that would almost certainly make the team worse.

 

[Bender]

Everyone is saying he's immovable but we saw all manner of players moved in the salary cap era, and this is a starting point of discussion. In some ways moving off his $11m and declining value with some (not 50%) retention may be better if it means we keep Auston/Willy/Marner and are still able to have let's say $8m in cap space for more younger but capable depth pieces.

I think keeping the younger players together makes a lot more sense and may incentivize them to resign and stay longer term than keeping Tavares but trading Nylander or Marner. You find a capable 2C at $5m that gels with Willy and you may have solved a big problem, which is Tavares and Willy not working and you have money left over.

It's easy to criticize something when there's no counter proposal.

Your proposal weakens the team's asset pool and relies on other theoretical moves to improve. That's not a strong basis for anything, and, quite frankly, doesn't require a counter proposal to be criticized. Attaching a 1st round pick to dump Tavares - a still very valuable player - is not something that should even be remotely be considered. It's really that bad a suggestion.

He's not immovable because of his cap hit or his performance. He's immovable because he has a full NMC and will almost certainly block any trade from happening.

In addition to all of this the central lesson of the Tavares deal, to this point anyway, should be that trying to improve the team via free agency almost always results in getting bad price performance no matter how good the player is.

Cap space is lovely but it's really not a great avenue to team improvement.

I concede your point, but I think there are variables to that. I think in general Brodie gave us good price performance and there are value contracts out there. The thing with Tavares specifically is he was the biggest fish in some time and so there was always an overpay. If the middle tier players of the league get pushed down in salary because higher percentages of cap space are allocated to stars then there could be something there. It would also make a difference if you're less constrained when trying to make a trade.

But I do agree on the whole that you're better off drafting and developing your talent and trying to leverage better contracts that way. One wonders if that strategy has worked out for us though.

 

[Bender]

Ok, but if the technically best team is the core 4 what would you say to that?

I'd say that any team is more than its 4 best players and work needs to be done to improve the supporting cast in the medium and short term.

And if their deals expire and some of them walk for nothing because instead of trading them because they iced the best team, what then?

Then that would represent a decision made by whoever is the GM at the time. Nobody is blindsided by a player not signing an extension and if some of the guys currently on the team don't want to re-sign it may be time to look at moving them. That said, I think we'd need to be realistic about the fact that departures like that would almost certainly make the team worse.

But that's kind of my point. You could ice the best team possible next year with the core 4 but the risk is they don't resign, so it's a bit of a catch-22 unless you're also ok with taking a step back in the short term and hopefully reloading in the medium term, because they're in a bit of a jam with these contracts running out.