R2, G3: Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - May 7th, 6:30pm - SN, Fan 590

[Bender]

I think management seriously needs to look at overhauling this team. I honestly feel we may lose some of these stars for nothing so in my opinion make some trades and recoup some young talent and/or picks. Dubas has traded a lot away and we need to restock the cupboard. Game 3 was the last straw with this bunch for me. When you're down 2-0 in a series and in probably the biggest game of the year and not show up what else do you need to figure out. Talent on this team is probably above any other team still playing but again this core has demonstrated it's just not built for playoff hockey. Most of us probably couldn't name 5 Kraken but it just shows you with good work ethic, grit, determination, coaching etc that talent alone doesn't win you a cup. If Leaf management at some point doesn't look at trading the core it's going to be pretty dismal watching this team due to what Dubas has done over the last say 3 years.

Leafs have no patience.  I thought they would take the patient approach when they drafted Matthews.  But nope.  Lou Lam immediately traded a first rounder for Andersen, which getting rid of the first rounder and making the team marginally better messed it all up.  Then Dubas continued the trend of dealing draft picks like candy and here we are.

I think you're entirely correct. We really went away from the draft and develop philosophy when our core 3 forwards we still very young. It doesn't help though that we had a series of pretty bad drafts with few impact players, or some players we couldn't fit under the cap for various reasons once they needed new contracts like Connor Brown.

 

[ZBBM]

Most of us probably couldn't name 5 Kraken but it just shows you with good work ethic, grit, determination, coaching etc that talent alone doesn't win you a cup.

Admittedly I'm not a scientist but it would seem to me that the lesson of the Kraken this year is that any team can get beat by a less talented team even if they, like the only team the Kraken have beaten in a series, indisputably have the talent and mental make-up to win a cup.

I honestly felt and I said it after beating TB even not playing their best hockey that getting that monkey off their back they would play better in round 2. Florida I think is easier to play against than TB and with their more free wheeling style thought it would play into our hands. We were unlucky to go down 2-0 but think that was due to goaltending in my opinion. We've seen this story before with this core and at some point you have to move on. Some say give them more time they'll finally figure it out but I don't think so. As a fan it's pretty demoralizing watching guys making 11 million a season and do absolutely sweet f all.

I sympathize with you.  But "moving on" means being bad for X years in the hope that you can get back to where they are now.

The fact is that you don't "move on" from a Hart/Rocket winner in his prime.  There are only two of those in this league, and while Matthews admittedly is not the equal of the other guy, he's still better than 99% of the other players in the NHL.  And has gotten markedly better on both sides of the puck.

I am just as disappointed as you that Matthews seems to be unable to take over critical playoff games.  But he's a generational talent.  You do pretty much whatever it takes to keep him a Leaf for life.  Period.

Marner is a more interesting case.  His game does regress in the playoffs.  Tighter checking, tons of interference allowed combine to limit his time and space.  But again, he's easily top 5% in the league.  You don't just "move on."

What I would do if they get flushed is change the leadership culture in the room.  Get a new coach.  Take the C from Tavares and give it to Matthews.  Tell him it's his team now.  And then move from there.

 

[Kin]

But that's kind of my point. You could ice the best team possible next year with the core 4 but the risk is they don't resign, so it's a bit of a catch-22 unless you're also ok with taking a step back in the short term and hopefully reloading in the medium term, because they're in a bit of a jam with these contracts running out.

I don't see what's Catch-22 about it. You sort of seem to be making two different cases here. One is that this team, with these four players in key roles, can't be successful due to some inherent deficiency and that the team would be better suited for playoff success if they traded them. The other is that if these guys don't want to re-sign the team is better off in the long run by trading them for assets.

I've said what I thought about the first one before and like I just said with regards to the second it's not that it's irrational, it's just that I think we need to be realistic about what it means for the team for the foreseeable future.

 

[Kin]

But I do agree on the whole that you're better off drafting and developing your talent and trying to leverage better contracts that way. One wonders if that strategy has worked out for us though.

It only "hasn't worked out" for the Leafs in the sense that they didn't do it enough and as a result are forced to look for depth pieces like Brodie, and I agree that you can do ok with depth pieces on the free agent market, via free agency.

But the reality is that when you look at teams who actually win, there's really no alternative to it. Sure teams can add an impact player here or there via other means but just about any team that's really successful does it on the back of homegrown talent. 

 

[Bender]

But that's kind of my point. You could ice the best team possible next year with the core 4 but the risk is they don't resign, so it's a bit of a catch-22 unless you're also ok with taking a step back in the short term and hopefully reloading in the medium term, because they're in a bit of a jam with these contracts running out.

I don't see what's Catch-22 about it. You sort of seem to be making two different cases here. One is that this team, with these four players in key roles, can't be successful due to some inherent deficiency and that the team would be better suited for playoff success if they traded them. The other is that if these guys don't want to re-sign the team is better off in the long run by trading them for assets.

I've said what I thought about the first one before and like I just said with regards to the second it's not that it's irrational, it's just that I think we need to be realistic about what it means for the team for the foreseeable future.

I'm saying it's a catch-22 because it's hard to see on paper how the team is actually better without the core 4. We can debate what "best" means, but I'd have to think at least in the regular season we probably aren't in a fight for 2nd in the league if we lose the bpa in a trade for any of the core 4 - I think most people seem to concede that we'd lose any trade involving our core 4. So on one hand you have to run the core 4 back in a strict icing the "best" team sense, but you run the risk of Nylander or Matthews leaving at the end of the season, so trading one of them may be necessary but means you aren't icing the best team after the trade.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

But that's kind of my point. You could ice the best team possible next year with the core 4 but the risk is they don't resign, so it's a bit of a catch-22 unless you're also ok with taking a step back in the short term and hopefully reloading in the medium term, because they're in a bit of a jam with these contracts running out.

I don't see what's Catch-22 about it. You sort of seem to be making two different cases here. One is that this team, with these four players in key roles, can't be successful due to some inherent deficiency and that the team would be better suited for playoff success if they traded them. The other is that if these guys don't want to re-sign the team is better off in the long run by trading them for assets.

I've said what I thought about the first one before and like I just said with regards to the second it's not that it's irrational, it's just that I think we need to be realistic about what it means for the team for the foreseeable future.

I'm saying it's a catch-22 because it's hard to see on paper how the team is actually better without the core 4. We can debate what "best" means, but I'd have to think at least in the regular season we probably aren't in a fight for 2nd in the league if we lose the bpa in a trade for any of the core 4 - I think most people seem to concede that we'd lose any trade involving our core 4. So on one hand you have to run the core 4 back in a strict icing the "best" team sense, but you run the risk of Nylander or Matthews leaving at the end of the season, so trading one of them may be necessary but means you aren't icing the best team after the trade.

The error the Leafs made was not following through with developing their own talent.  I don't think the issue is with Marner, Matthews or Nylander.  I wouldn't have signed Tavares to that contract in the first place.  But here we are and he has a NMC.

The only reason the option of trading Matthews, Marner and Nylander is being brought up is because they are only real assests that are easily movable and would bring the most in picks and prospects in return.  Otherwise, the Leafs are going to tread water for the next few years, and if Matthews, Marner and Nylander leave in free agency, Leafs will really be left with nothing except a couple more pretty ok regular seasons. 

To keep Matthews, Marner and Nylander and re-tool around them through acquiring free agents and throwing away more draft picks is just going to result in more of the same. 

Those three are in their prime, and could have been surrounded with cheaper, better home grown talent.  Instead they are surrounded with off casts that nobody else wanted.

 

[Bill33]

I know the body's not cold yet, but:

Dubas, Matthews, Marner, Nylander =keep

Keefe, Tavares -lose/try to convince to waive NTC.

Rest- don't care.

 

[Arn]

I think the big change is the coach, and I?m convinced that change needs made, almost even if they somehow drag this series back as far as 7 games.

In terms of the players, I?d be open to looking at something like trying to swap Brodie and Nylander for some kind of young stud defence man. No idea who. I don?t really WANT to trade Nylander, but probably he?s the best bet to move for various reasons, including his lower salary.

I?d try and keep a hold of ROR and Schenn as veteran leaders.

There?s some interesting players out there who could change the style of the forward group including the likes of Bertuzzi or Domi.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I know the body's not cold yet, but:

Dubas, Matthews, Marner, Nylander =keep

Keefe, Tavares -lose/try to convince to waive NTC.

Rest- don't care.

There's no way they're going to trade Tavares. Even if they wanted to. He has the NMC. I agree that signing him now was a terrible decision, but they're stuck with him for two more years. Then he pulls a Spezze/Giordano or he's gone.