Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[ZBBM]

I'll say it again, this Leafs team has more talent than any in the last 10 years.

You know what they have in Dwarf Pubs? Low bars.

I'm hearkening back to when they were consistently about the eighth best team in the league.  Not a high bar but not that low either.  Their forwards now are deeper than then and the goaltending is better.

 

[Kin]

I'm hearkening back to when they were consistently about the eighth best team in the league.  Not a high bar but not that low either.  Their forwards now are deeper than then and the goaltending is better.

I mean, I don't think they're more talented than the pre-lockout Sundin teams and I'd question giving them that edge over some of the post lock-out teams. 06-07, for instance, was a team that had a lot of talent, just none of it in net and not all of it properly used.

 

[TML fan]

That's why the Leafs went out and got Clarkson. They identified that the Leafs needed another dimension to their game.

I think it would be fair to say at this point that the Clarkson signing hasn't really materialized the way they would have hoped. That's personnel again however.

Why aren't they executing? How come they can sometimes do it and others they can't? How come it's usually in the 2nd half of the game?

In order, at least how I see it:

1. Because they're not very good and I think that's relatively true throughout the lineup.

2. Because they're not so bad that they're going to be completely ineffective. Kessel, JVR and the rest are good at some things and those things can result in opportunities that can be exploited.

3. Because team's will alter their game plan during the game to combat those opportunities and because so much of the Leafs' advantage seems to be based on speed which is something that will diminish as legs tire throughout a game.

The Leafs only use their speed to exploit the opportunities they are given. The rest of the time they're content to just let the other team come at them. When they DON'T do that, and actually create their own chances by establishing an aggressive forecheck and make shorter passes on breakouts, they are a much better team. In order words, when they play offence, they're better at defence.

When you're in a tie game, how can you expect to win when the other team has the puck in their end, and the Leafs have 4 skaters at their own blue line?

And no, Clarkson isn't the problem. The fact that the Leafs never have the damn puck is. It's the reason they got him. They know their puck possession sucks, but he's just one guy.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It's frustrating that the East isn't looking very good this season and the Leafs have what looks to be the best 1-2 goaltending combo in the conference an possibly the league.  Would be awful to squander that.

I think @Hope_Smoke on Twitter put it best, that Carlyle is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with this team.  It's not Nashville with a lack of offensive firepower, but he's turned the team, or is trying to turn the team, into this "lunch bucket" sort of team, trying to make them be a cycle team not a rush team. Just signed Kessel to an 8 year deal, and he plays best off the rush.

The "rush" style didn't work when they had awful goaltending, but it's not awful now.  There's no reason to stifle the offence to the level that they have when the top 9 (when healthy) is littered with offensive weapons. 

If you're going to lose, lose playing to your strengths and not this mish-mash half and half style that I don't even know what it is. 

 

[Zee]

Alright you guys win, let's fire Carlyle.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Alright you guys win, let's fire Carlyle.

WHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Zee]

Alright you guys win, let's fire Carlyle.

WHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Not that my vote means anything.  I doubt Nonis hears the villagers at the gates with the pitchforks.  LOL

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Not that my vote means anything.  I doubt Nonis hears the villagers at the gates with the pitchforks.  LOL

He probably doesn't:

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 33m
Dreger on TSN Radio "I can assure you that Leaf management and ownership is not thinking of removing Carlyle in any way"

 

[drummond]

Not that my vote means anything.  I doubt Nonis hears the villagers at the gates with the pitchforks.  LOL

He probably doesn't:

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 33m
Dreger on TSN Radio "I can assure you that Leaf management and ownership is not thinking of removing Carlyle in any way yet "

Few more losses and the quote would look like that

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I feel like tonight perfectly encapsulated what I find a little strange about all of the Carlyle criticism. I mean, I can count shots on net as well as the next person but I still struggle with the idea that what the team is producing is wildly out of step with the talent level of the club.

Admittedly, I claim no expertise in the area of the Xs and Os and I'm not an advocate of the face punchers, but I still have to come back to the idea that how a coach coaches is secondary to the talent level on a club and where this team is record wise, to me, is reflective of a not very good team that's gotten really good goaltending but caught some bad breaks injury wise.

Holy crap, I agree with Nik!

Well said sir, well said.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Not that my vote means anything.  I doubt Nonis hears the villagers at the gates with the pitchforks.  LOL

He probably doesn't:

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 33m
Dreger on TSN Radio "I can assure you that Leaf management and ownership is not thinking of removing Carlyle in any way"

So that pretty much means he's a gonner.  The dreaded vote of confidence sounds the death knell.

 

[Andy007]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

I think it's actually the opposite. That a team with players like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Clarkson and, to a lesser extent, Raymond, Kulemin, Bozak, Phaneuf and Rielly, should be unable to get one shot on net for over an hour tells me that there is something wrong on the coaching and system side of things. If this were a less talented team I would be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

I think it's actually the opposite. That a team with players like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Clarkson and, to a lesser extent, Raymond, Kulemin, Bozak, Phaneuf and Rielly, should be unable to get one shot on net for over an hour tells me that there is something wrong on the coaching and system side of things. If this were a less talented team I would be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

Worse Leafs rosters never had such an issue with getting shots on net or getting outplayed so consistently, which to me points to it being a fault somewhere in the system they're being taught.  Either it's not right for this group or it's not getting through, but in either case the coach needs to figure it out.

I mean, the Leafs have MULTIPLE games of being outshot by 20+ shots.  That's ridiculous.

 

[Zee]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

I think it's actually the opposite. That a team with players like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Clarkson and, to a lesser extent, Raymond, Kulemin, Bozak, Phaneuf and Rielly, should be unable to get one shot on net for over an hour tells me that there is something wrong on the coaching and system side of things. If this were a less talented team I would be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

Yeah I don't know about "lack of talent".  The Leafs have a good collection of offensive forwards, there's no way they should be getting held to 0 shots over a 25 min span.  This Leafs team isn't lacking in talent by any means.

 

[nutman]

Did the coach change the game plan going into the third because that's when things went for a crap. If so, maybe the team feels this is the reason for the lack of shots, or bad play, the system is not working, and they just quit on him.

 

[Kin]

The Leafs only use their speed to exploit the opportunities they are given. The rest of the time they're content to just let the other team come at them. When they DON'T do that, and actually create their own chances by establishing an aggressive forecheck and make shorter passes on breakouts, they are a much better team. In order words, when they play offence, they're better at defence.

I suppose the difference then, is that I haven't seen their periods of effective play as ones characterized by an aggressive forecheck and the results thereof. I've seen them scoring goals off the rush which I think is what does play to their strengths. I don't think they have the skillset to be the sort of aggressive puck controlling team you think they ought to be in the tough moments.

When you're in a tie game, how can you expect to win when the other team has the puck in their end, and the Leafs have 4 skaters at their own blue line?

By continuing to try and generate chances off the rush. I know it's not the best of options but, and I suppose this is the crux of how we see things differently, I don't think there's much else for them to do. I don't think that if you have Kessel and JVR down low on the forecheck you're going to generate a ton of chances off it.

And no, Clarkson isn't the problem. The fact that the Leafs never have the damn puck is. It's the reason they got him. They know their puck possession sucks, but he's just one guy.

I didn't say Clarkson was "the problem" I said that, contrary to your assertion, his acquisition hasn't single-handedly added the secondary dimension to the Leafs game that you sort of said was the motivation behind it. Now that very well might have been an unfair expectation to put on him but as you sort of point here he's one guy. One guy does not fix a problem or add a new dimension to a team so, ultimately, they have to stay largely within the same parameters they did before him.

 

[Kin]

Few more losses and the quote would look like that

I just don't buy that. I admit we haven't seen a ton from Nonis but I really don't buy that he's the guy who's going to look at a team with a decent record and fire a coach because of concerns about where they might be in a month.

 

[Kin]

I think it's actually the opposite. That a team with players like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Clarkson and, to a lesser extent, Raymond, Kulemin, Bozak, Phaneuf and Rielly, should be unable to get one shot on net for over an hour tells me that there is something wrong on the coaching and system side of things. If this were a less talented team I would be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

See, again, I keep coming back to that third period power play though. That was an excellent opportunity for them to get shots off and, regardless of anything else someone might want to say about Carlyle, they've clearly established a fairly effective PP strategy. I didn't see any difference in strategy deployed, the players just didn't get it done.

And, to an extent, I think that sort of speaks to the problems we occasionally have with identifying "talent". I think Kessel is a very good offensive player, I think in the right opportunities he's as good a finisher as there is in the league and that results in impressive point totals but last night in the third period and OT he had the puck on his stick a lot, with the same sort of support Crosby and Malkin had and he generated a great big load of nothing. He'd skate into the opponents zone, they wouldn't have numbers and..that was that. He didn't have another gear. He didn't switch into beast mode and become someone who you couldn't get the puck off. They shut down his angle and he got bottled up.

 

[bbt]

How can they fire Carlye?  It's early in the season and the Leafs are already in 3rd period playoff forum.