Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[bustaheims]

So...Pronger leaves, Carlyle stays and in two years the Ducks go from being pretty good in shots against to one of the worst in the league and it's a system thing?

If you need one of the best defencemen in the league to make your system work, then I think it's pretty fair to say that the system is flawed.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

 

[TML fan]

It's not new for Carlyle either.  In 2010-11 in Anaheim, the Ducks were 4th worst with 32.3 SA/G, in 2009-10 they were 2nd worst with 33.4 SA/G (coincides with Pronger leaving).

Yeah but it's not the system.

So...Pronger leaves, Carlyle stays and in two years the Ducks go from being pretty good in shots against to one of the worst in the league and it's a system thing?

Yes. A system that only works with exceptional players is a flawed system. I've also stated time and time again that it's not something that is sustainable long term. It's a self-defeating philosophy.

 

[Kin]

If you need one of the best defencemen in the league to make your system work, then I think it's pretty fair to say that the system is flawed.

But they didn't just lose Pronger, that's also the year they lost Beauchemin. So losing two of the top three defensemen on a team who, between them, averaged 53 minutes a game in previous years is going to see some pretty big flaws exposed that can't be covered up by the likes of Ryan Whitney and James Wisniewski. I'm sorry, that's not coaching.

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

Talent won them a cup. Not Carlyle.

 

[Kin]

Yes. A system that only works with exceptional players is a flawed system.

I would very much question the existence of any "system" that has proven itself to be a viable long term strategy without the presence of exceptional players. Even the Devils, for all of their trickery, were propped up on the back end by three hall of famers.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

Talent won them a cup. Not Carlyle.

Come on. Is this the whole "they won in spite of him" theory? 

Because that is hogwash.  It's as bad as "the Leafs won last year because of Reimer and luck".

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It's not new for Carlyle either.  In 2010-11 in Anaheim, the Ducks were 4th worst with 32.3 SA/G, in 2009-10 they were 2nd worst with 33.4 SA/G (coincides with Pronger leaving).

Yeah but it's not the system.

So...Pronger leaves, Carlyle stays and in two years the Ducks go from being pretty good in shots against to one of the worst in the league and it's a system thing?

Yes. A system that only works with exceptional players is a flawed system. I've also stated time and time again that it's not something that is sustainable long term. It's a self-defeating philosophy.

There's been very few 'systems' that have worked well enough to win a Cup without a couple 'exceptional players' on the roster.

 

[maplesyrup]

The flying V?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

Talent won them a cup. Not Carlyle.

So once again, they win despite him and lose because of him. That there is where I take issue.

 

[Kin]

The flying V?

Excuse me sir, but Adam Banks was an exceptional hockey player. So much so that the evil coach of the Hawks had him on the team despite living outside of their catchment area.

 

[TML fan]

Yes. A system that only works with exceptional players is a flawed system.

I would very much question the existence of any "system" that has proven itself to be a viable long term strategy without the presence of exceptional players. Even the Devils, for all of their trickery, were propped up on the back end by three hall of famers.

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The flying V?

Charlie Conway was exceptional, so was Adam Banks.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yes. A system that only works with exceptional players is a flawed system.

I would very much question the existence of any "system" that has proven itself to be a viable long term strategy without the presence of exceptional players. Even the Devils, for all of their trickery, were propped up on the back end by three hall of famers.

So what is it about the Carlyle system that is so flawed you guys believe this theory? What is so fundamentally different about what he's telling these guys to do that some other reputable coach could come in and correct and change everything for the better, without a Chris Pronger... and btw, Phaneuf is playing about as well as he ever has and I would throw out that he's not THAT far off from being as effective as Pronger was. Certainly not to cause the gaping void you are saying is the reason why Carlyle's system is failing.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

1995, 2000, 2003
New Jersey Devils, Stanley Cup wins

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

Talent won them a cup. Not Carlyle.

Come on. Is this the whole "they won in spite of him" theory? 

Because that is hogwash.  It's as bad as "the Leafs won last year because of Reimer and luck".

Well, that's why they won.

 

[Corn Flake]

The flying V?

Excuse me sir, but Adam Banks was an exceptional hockey player. So much so that the evil coach of the Hawks had him on the team despite living outside of their catchment area.

They leaned heavily on Fulton. He was a brick wall (literally) back there.

 

[Kin]

So what is it about the Carlyle system that is so flawed you guys believe this theory? What is so fundamentally different about what he's telling these guys to do that some other reputable coach could come in and correct and change everything for the better, without a Chris Pronger... and btw, Phaneuf is playing about as well as he ever has and I would throw out that he's not THAT far off from being as effective as Pronger was. Certainly not to cause the gaping void you are saying is the reason why Carlyle's system is failing.

Is this directed to me? Because I don't think that's a fair representation of what I said.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

Talent won them a cup. Not Carlyle.

Come on. Is this the whole "they won in spite of him" theory? 

Because that is hogwash.  It's as bad as "the Leafs won last year because of Reimer and luck".

Well, that's why they won.

Wow. 

 

[TML fan]

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

1995, 2000, 2003
New Jersey Devils, Stanley Cup wins

Exceptional players. How many teams have tried to implement the trap and failed? Talent DOES matter. I never argued it doesn't. I'm arguing that the Leafs have the talent, not to be champions perhaps but definitely to be better than they are showing. It's just not being implemented correctly.