Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[Corn Flake]

So what is it about the Carlyle system that is so flawed you guys believe this theory? What is so fundamentally different about what he's telling these guys to do that some other reputable coach could come in and correct and change everything for the better, without a Chris Pronger... and btw, Phaneuf is playing about as well as he ever has and I would throw out that he's not THAT far off from being as effective as Pronger was. Certainly not to cause the gaping void you are saying is the reason why Carlyle's system is failing.

Is this directed to me? Because I don't think that's a fair representation of what I said.

Not necessarily.  Directed at the general point that Carlyle's system is somehow flawed and depended on Pronger to fill the gaping hole that apparently exists in it.

i'm getting the impression (not a direct quote) from the posts I'm reading that you add a Pronger and Carlyle's system wins cups. You take him away and it hits rock bottom.  You know, other than having a Reimer and apparently a big heaping wad of luck.

 

[Corn Flake]

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

1995, 2000, 2003
New Jersey Devils, Stanley Cup wins

Exceptional players. How many teams have tried to implement the trap and failed? Talent DOES matter. I never argued it doesn't. I'm arguing that the Leafs have the talent, not to be champions perhaps but definitely to be better than they are showing. It's just not being implemented correctly.

Hey coach, tell us how YOU would implement it correctly.

 

[TML fan]

Yeah but it's not the system.

The system that own them a cup?  System didn't change when Pronger left.

Talent won them a cup. Not Carlyle.

Come on. Is this the whole "they won in spite of him" theory? 

Because that is hogwash.  It's as bad as "the Leafs won last year because of Reimer and luck".

Well, that's why they won.

Wow.

I don't think you fully understand what's happening on the ice.

 

[TML fan]

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

1995, 2000, 2003
New Jersey Devils, Stanley Cup wins

Exceptional players. How many teams have tried to implement the trap and failed? Talent DOES matter. I never argued it doesn't. I'm arguing that the Leafs have the talent, not to be champions perhaps but definitely to be better than they are showing. It's just not being implemented correctly.

Hey coach, tell us how YOU would implement it correctly.

Would you really like me to explain it for the 100th time, or are you just being sarcastic?

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't think you fully understand what's happening on the ice.

Likewise, if you go with "luck" as your conclusion.

 

[Corn Flake]

Would you really like me to explain it for the 100th time, or are you just being sarcastic?

No please, go ahead.

 

[TML fan]

I don't think you fully understand what's happening on the ice.

Likewise, if you go with "luck" as your conclusion.

Ok, but I can actually explain it.

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't think you fully understand what's happening on the ice.

Likewise, if you go with "luck" as your conclusion.

Ok, but I can actually explain it.

I'm all ears.

 

[Kin]

Not necessarily.  Directed at the general point that Carlyle's system is somehow flawed and depended on Pronger to fill the gaping hole that apparently exists in it.

i'm getting the impression (not a direct quote) from the posts I'm reading that you add a Pronger and Carlyle's system wins cups. You take him away and it hits rock bottom.  You know, other than having a Reimer and apparently a big heaping wad of luck.

No, I mean, I can't speak to anyone else's views on the matter but personally my point of view is that coaches and their systems aren't nearly as important as they're being made out to be and that while it might be fair to look at the margins like the sheer number of shots allowed vs. shots for and attribute it partially to a coach I think that seems to me to be a matter of degrees as opposed to the whole pot of coffee.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

1995, 2000, 2003
New Jersey Devils, Stanley Cup wins

Exceptional players. How many teams have tried to implement the trap and failed? Talent DOES matter. I never argued it doesn't. I'm arguing that the Leafs have the talent, not to be champions perhaps but definitely to be better than they are showing. It's just not being implemented correctly.

You see, you're missing what I'm saying. But I'm sure there's no real point in explaining.

 

[Corn Flake]

Not necessarily.  Directed at the general point that Carlyle's system is somehow flawed and depended on Pronger to fill the gaping hole that apparently exists in it.

i'm getting the impression (not a direct quote) from the posts I'm reading that you add a Pronger and Carlyle's system wins cups. You take him away and it hits rock bottom.  You know, other than having a Reimer and apparently a big heaping wad of luck.

No, I mean, I can't speak to anyone else's views on the matter but personally my point of view is that coaches and their systems aren't nearly as important as they're being made out to be and that while it might be fair to look at the margins like the sheer number of shots allowed vs. shots for and attribute it partially to a coach I don't think, as some seem to, that seems to me to be a matter of degrees as opposed to the whole pot of coffee.

Ok fair enough. I think I'm in the same boat in general.

edit: AKA: I don't see how a different coach is going to come in here and within even 40 games, this team suddenly stops being outshot, etc.  I think the players as a group need to improve with experience and mature before things really start to change, and yes there should probably be some roster changes on the back-end to help that. 

BUT.. the best and most talented players on this team continue to make dumb plays in the offensive zone or entering the zone which are contributing as much to lost possession time in the opponent's end than the d-men having trouble getting the puck out. 

Carlyle isn't telling Kadri to do his dipsy doodle with the puck at the blue line, or Kessel the same, or Gardiner to get stuck behind the opponents net, or basically all the forwards to keep making blind low percentage passes at the net in the hopes of a teammate magically picking the puck up.

 

[TML fan]

Would you really like me to explain it for the 100th time, or are you just being sarcastic?

No please, go ahead.

Ok here goes:

1) The defensive zone coverage - Everyone is too deep in the zone. They collapse to protect the net. Allow shots from the sides and the outside. The centre is often behind the net leaving the winger to protect the slot. It's too easy to keep the puck in the zone. The wingers are too far out to put any pressure on the defencemen, allowing them to either shoot at will or to keep the cycle going in the corners. They don't challenge players at the side boards or at the point. They give players too much time with the puck in the defensive zone. That's how they get running around and chasing the puck. It's exhausting playing defence.

2) The breakout - once again, everyone is too deep in the zone. When they actually recover the puck, there is no outlet. Any team with ANY kind of forechecking pressure can force a turnover, either by stripping the puck directly as the defenceman looks for a play and is forced to eat it, or by forcing them to chip it out. Either way it's a turnover. When they do manage to control a breakout, the forwards all fly the zone. We've all seen that long stretch pass. You can't attack with any speed. All you can do is chip it in. The only way the Leafs can attack with speed is if someone carries it out.

3) the offensive zone - practically non existent forecheck. They generally only send one guy deep while the centre hovers outside the zone and the other winger at the blue line. They can't force any turnovers. They usually only do this when they have the lead or are trying to prevent their deficit from getting wider.

Basically, the Leafs whole strategy is to protect their net and wait for counter attack opportunities. This is where luck comes in. They are waiting for the other team to mess up, to get over aggressive, get caught not paying attention and then they pounce. They have the speed and the talent level to make it happen. The problem is they don't have the talent level on the defensive side of the game to get away with it. They don't have the exceptional players like Brodeur, and Stevens, and Pronger etc. the one thing they do have, and the only reason they aren't the absolute worst team in the NHL, is their goaltending.

They have the offensive talent to make things happen. They have the speed to play an aggressive, offensive style. They now have players who can control the puck in the offensive zone. They don't need to bang and crash all the time. They just need to get pucks deep and get more guys in there to harass defenders and force turnovers. They need to close the gap between the defence and the forwards in the transition. They need to stop going so deep in their zone so there is an outlet when the Leafs gain possession. In the offensive zone they should be sending 2 guys deep to forecheck while one guy stays high in case the play comes the other way. You will never be outmanned this way and the Leafs have the speed to get back.

I'm advocating a simplified system that I believe takes advantage of all the Leafs strengths. They don't really excel at one thing in particular, certainly not defence, so I don't understand why their coach is advocating a defensive system. Square peg, round hole.

 

[bustaheims]

I think, to put things really simply, based on the talent on the roster, the Leafs need to be playing a much more up tempo, aggressive system rather than the passive system they've been using. They need to take away time and space in all three zones, force turnovers and create more opportunities to take advantage of their size and their speed.

 

[Corn Flake]

Would you really like me to explain it for the 100th time, or are you just being sarcastic?

No please, go ahead.

Ok here goes:

1) The defensive zone coverage - Everyone is too deep in the zone. They collapse to protect the net. Allow shots from the sides and the outside. The centre is often behind the net leaving the winger to protect the slot. It's too easy to keep the puck in the zone. The wingers are too far out to put any pressure on the defencemen, allowing them to either shoot at will or to keep the cycle going in the corners. They don't challenge players at the side boards or at the point. They give players too much time with the puck in the defensive zone. That's how they get running around and chasing the puck. It's exhausting playing defence.

2) The breakout - once again, everyone is too deep in the zone. When they actually recover the puck, there is no outlet. Any team with ANY kind of forechecking pressure can force a turnover, either by stripping the puck directly as the defenceman looks for a play and is forced to eat it, or by forcing them to chip it out. Either way it's a turnover. When they do manage to control a breakout, the forwards all fly the zone. We've all seen that long stretch pass. You can't attack with any speed. All you can do is chip it in. The only way the Leafs can attack with speed is if someone carries it out.

3) the offensive zone - practically non existent forecheck. They generally only send one guy deep while the centre hovers outside the zone and the other winger at the blue line. They can't force any turnovers. They usually only do this when they have the lead or are trying to prevent their deficit from getting wider.

Basically, the Leafs whole strategy is to protect their net and wait for counter attack opportunities. This is where luck comes in. They are waiting for the other team to mess up, to get over aggressive, get caught not paying attention and then they pounce. They have the speed and the talent level to make it happen. The problem is they don't have the talent level on the defensive side of the game to get away with it. They don't have the exceptional players like Brodeur, and Stevens, and Pronger etc. the one thing they do have, and the only reason they aren't the absolute worst team in the NHL, is their goaltending.

They have the offensive talent to make things happen. They have the speed to play an aggressive, offensive style. They now have players who can control the puck in the offensive zone. They don't need to bang and crash all the time. They just need to get pucks deep and get more guys in there to harass defenders and force turnovers. They need to close the gap between the defence and the forwards in the transition. They need to stop going so deep in their zone so there is an outlet when the Leafs gain possession. In the offensive zone they should be sending 2 guys deep to forecheck while one guy stays high in case the play comes the other way. You will never be outmanned this way and the Leafs have the speed to get back.

I'm advocating a simplified system that I believe takes advantage of all the Leafs strengths. They don't really excel at one thing in particular, certainly not defence, so I don't understand why their coach is advocating a defensive system. Square peg, round hole.

I'd like to give a more detailed response since you took the time to outline this, and I will, but my first thought is where most of these issues you highlighted, they are things Carlyle has said he wants them to either fix or do more of.  I don't see them as a product of what Carlyle is preaching but rather the players simply not executing on a nightly basis.  Forecheck is a great example.  Carlyle has been advocating more dump and chase and stop pissing around at the blueline, get in, fore check and win battles. 

More later... I must try to not get fired.

 

[TML fan]

Who ever said the Devils' system wasn't flawed?

1995, 2000, 2003
New Jersey Devils, Stanley Cup wins

Exceptional players. How many teams have tried to implement the trap and failed? Talent DOES matter. I never argued it doesn't. I'm arguing that the Leafs have the talent, not to be champions perhaps but definitely to be better than they are showing. It's just not being implemented correctly.

You see, you're missing what I'm saying. But I'm sure there's no real point in explaining.

Well what are you saying? Those teams implemented a system and made it work because they had exceptional players, including quite possibly the best goaltender of all time. How could you be saying anything else? I'm saying how many teams have tried the same thing and failed because  they didn't have exceptional players? Once again, players do matter. Never disputed that. You are arguing that the Leafs have a general lack of talent. I am saying, unequivocally, that is false. They lack the proper talent to implement the kind of system that Carlyle is employing, which is strictly a defensive, counter attack system. I found it funny that nobody got my Team Switzerland reference yesterday. This is EXACTLY how they play. The Olympics are coming up. Watch them closely. You'll see the similarities. It is a system where by design, you play to not lose, rather than play to win. They employ it because they don't have a choice. They don't have the talent to compete any other way. I'm saying that the Leafs DO have a choice, because they have the talent to play an aggressive offensive game, and the goaltending to back it up. They don't, however, have the defensive personnel to make this type of a system work and that's why we're seeing the product on the ice that we are.

Carlyle needs to let them loose offensively, or he needs to go. Either way, I promise you, the Leafs will be a better team.

 

[TML fan]

I think, to put things really simply, based on the talent on the roster, the Leafs need to be playing a much more up tempo, aggressive system rather than the passive system they've been using. They need to take away time and space in all three zones, force turnovers and create more opportunities to take advantage of their size and their speed.

Bingo.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think, to put things really simply, based on the talent on the roster, the Leafs need to be playing a much more up tempo, aggressive system rather than the passive system they've been using. They need to take away time and space in all three zones, force turnovers and create more opportunities to take advantage of their size and their speed.

And to respond simply, Carlyle is preaching those very things yet the players aren't producing it on a nightly basis.  We've heard him say it, we've heard the reports from practice about what he's yelling at them, etc.  So to say it's Carlyle telling them to do something other than this is not correct, IMO. 

So to me it comes down to the players at some point need to finally deliver, or they are the wrong players, or Carlyle is not getting the message across.  If it's point #3 then maybe a coaching change helps that, but to be honest I don't think it will change a lot.

All teams have certain traits, like the Capitals seem to have the same qualities and weaknesses they've head for years despite six different coaches. Changing the voice screaming won't always change the result. Toronto really isn't a lot different, and will (like the Caps) struggle to be a legit contender until they find away to reduce the weaknesses as much as possible.

 

[TML fan]

Would you really like me to explain it for the 100th time, or are you just being sarcastic?

No please, go ahead.

Ok here goes:

1) The defensive zone coverage - Everyone is too deep in the zone. They collapse to protect the net. Allow shots from the sides and the outside. The centre is often behind the net leaving the winger to protect the slot. It's too easy to keep the puck in the zone. The wingers are too far out to put any pressure on the defencemen, allowing them to either shoot at will or to keep the cycle going in the corners. They don't challenge players at the side boards or at the point. They give players too much time with the puck in the defensive zone. That's how they get running around and chasing the puck. It's exhausting playing defence.

2) The breakout - once again, everyone is too deep in the zone. When they actually recover the puck, there is no outlet. Any team with ANY kind of forechecking pressure can force a turnover, either by stripping the puck directly as the defenceman looks for a play and is forced to eat it, or by forcing them to chip it out. Either way it's a turnover. When they do manage to control a breakout, the forwards all fly the zone. We've all seen that long stretch pass. You can't attack with any speed. All you can do is chip it in. The only way the Leafs can attack with speed is if someone carries it out.

3) the offensive zone - practically non existent forecheck. They generally only send one guy deep while the centre hovers outside the zone and the other winger at the blue line. They can't force any turnovers. They usually only do this when they have the lead or are trying to prevent their deficit from getting wider.

Basically, the Leafs whole strategy is to protect their net and wait for counter attack opportunities. This is where luck comes in. They are waiting for the other team to mess up, to get over aggressive, get caught not paying attention and then they pounce. They have the speed and the talent level to make it happen. The problem is they don't have the talent level on the defensive side of the game to get away with it. They don't have the exceptional players like Brodeur, and Stevens, and Pronger etc. the one thing they do have, and the only reason they aren't the absolute worst team in the NHL, is their goaltending.

They have the offensive talent to make things happen. They have the speed to play an aggressive, offensive style. They now have players who can control the puck in the offensive zone. They don't need to bang and crash all the time. They just need to get pucks deep and get more guys in there to harass defenders and force turnovers. They need to close the gap between the defence and the forwards in the transition. They need to stop going so deep in their zone so there is an outlet when the Leafs gain possession. In the offensive zone they should be sending 2 guys deep to forecheck while one guy stays high in case the play comes the other way. You will never be outmanned this way and the Leafs have the speed to get back.

I'm advocating a simplified system that I believe takes advantage of all the Leafs strengths. They don't really excel at one thing in particular, certainly not defence, so I don't understand why their coach is advocating a defensive system. Square peg, round hole.

I'd like to give a more detailed response since you took the time to outline this, and I will, but my first thought is where most of these issues you highlighted, they are things Carlyle has said he wants them to either fix or do more of.  I don't see them as a product of what Carlyle is preaching but rather the players simply not executing on a nightly basis.  Forecheck is a great example.  Carlyle has been advocating more dump and chase and stop pissing around at the blueline, get in, fore check and win battles. 

More later... I must try to not get fired.

Right, but don't you see that the problem here is still Carlyle? I mean, if he wants them to do something and they aren't doing it, then clearly he's lost the team. What would you have Nonis do? Replace the team?

I've said this many times. The players look absolutely lost out there. It's like they don't know what Carlyle wants them to do, and I have to believe that it's still Carlyle that's the problem, and not that Nonis has assembled a roster of completely clueless players.

 

[Andy007]

I think, to put things really simply, based on the talent on the roster, the Leafs need to be playing a much more up tempo, aggressive system rather than the passive system they've been using. They need to take away time and space in all three zones, force turnovers and create more opportunities to take advantage of their size and their speed.

Mike Murphy took over in 96 and 97 and implemented a defensive system. The team was awful, gave up alot of goals, and finished about 10-15 games under .500 each year. Pat Quinn then comes in and implements an up tempo run and gun system with the same core and they make the conference finals. Sometimes all it takes is a simple philosophy change (or a different voice in the dressing room).

 

[hap_leaf]

I think, to put things really simply, based on the talent on the roster, the Leafs need to be playing a much more up tempo, aggressive system rather than the passive system they've been using. They need to take away time and space in all three zones, force turnovers and create more opportunities to take advantage of their size and their speed.

I thought Grabovski and Komarov were great at this.

I would say the worst forward we have in this regard is Phil Kessel.  Ironically, he being our best overall forward just by proxy of his wrist shot.