Relocation. Relocation. Relocation.

[Kin]

Since the arena falls within the Leafs 50 Mile exclusive zone, what would it cost to move a NHL team to Markham?  Would the Leafs even consider letting that happen?  Could they uphold their veto?

To answer those questions in order: Probably a lot, I'm sure they would if the price is right, if they tried to they'd almost certainly have to take it to court.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Since exclusivity agreements were brought up, I just want to say how much those annoy me.  All these festivals go on here in Australia near where I am, and all the big name/acts I want to see do 'side shows' and they're always only in the exact same places, and even farther away than the festival, which I can't afford. 

Anyways.

 

[Kin]

Another thing that strikes me is that the proposal to build a NHL quality arena for 325 million dollar strikes me as kind of wishful thinking. The estimated cost in Edmonton is 450 million. The Barclay's Center cost something in the neighbourhood of 1 billion.

I mean even Balsillie's proposed renovations to Copps were already in the range of 200 million or so. So either it'll be a step below those arenas or, and brace yourselves, they may be lowballing it.

 

[maplesyrup]

Yeah, that figure struck me as rather low too.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Ahh in that respect.  That makes more sense.  I was taking it to mean make life easier in general or something.

What Nik said.

 

[bustaheims]

Since the arena falls within the Leafs 50 Mile exclusive zone, what would it cost to move a NHL team to Markham?  Would the Leafs even consider letting that happen?  Could they uphold their veto?

According to the league during the whole Balsillie debacle, the veto doesn't actually exist. If it did, it would open up the league to antitrust suits.

 

[Brian Glennie]

Unless they could also own the new franchise I don't believe Bell/Rogers would ever, ever even consider accepting the introduction of a competitor within their marketplace.

 

[Knobby]

Unless they could also own the new franchise I don't believe Bell/Rogers would ever, ever even consider accepting the introduction of a competitor within their marketplace.

Exactly, who is going to broadcast their games, certainly no TSN or Sportsnet. We don't need another team.

 

[Fletch]

Unless they could also own the new franchise I don't believe Bell/Rogers would ever, ever even consider accepting the introduction of a competitor within their marketplace.

Exactly, who is going to broadcast their games, certainly no TSN or Sportsnet. We don't need another team.

That is a good point, that I have made in other discussions on the subject.

Regardless of whether there is a veto or not, the Leafs have far more influence now then they did during the Balsillie days, by nature of their new ownership.

Let's suppose, for arguments sake, the Islanders move into the new building, which is built on time, on budget (if we're playing what if, let's shoot for the moon).  As Knobby said, who is going to broadcast the Markham Islanders games?  Certainly not Sportsnet or TSN.  Maybe Shaw creates a ShawSports specialty channel, to show Markham Islanders games.  Will Rogers and Bell customers get the channel?  Probably, but they'll be bundled with the knitting network and crochetTV and buried far down the dial.  Do you think TSN and Rogers will show highlights prominently in their shows?  Doubtful.  Remeber how uncooperative TSN was towards The Score in their early days as Headline Sports?  They wouldn't allow them to use any of their highlights.  Would the new ShawSports be allowed to show highlights of Leafs/Raptors/Jays games on their nightly highlight show, SportsLine, hosted by Mark Hebscher and Jim Tatti (Yes Guy!). 

The topic of concerts was brought up earlier.  It seems to me that most concerts these days are promoted/sponsored by Rogers.  Throw in the exclusivity agreements already mentioned, and concerts will be hard to come by.  They may steal the odd Paul Anka show away from Casino Rama, but I doubt that Justin Bieber, or whoever the kids are into these days, could play Markham, even if he wanted to. 

I am trying to think of other things this arena might be used for.  WWE? UFC?  Both have happened at Rogers Centre and ACC in recent years, and WWE has even been at Ricoh, so maybe they don't have the same kind of exclusivity, but that is only a couple events a year, and I suspect that there are exclusivity deals of some sort in place.  Again, they may steal a Bellator MMA fight from Casino Rama, but I doubt that we'll see GSP defend his UFC title in Markham.

I could see a junior hockey team playing there.  Junior hockey is a sport that is based on supporting the home team, and I am sure teams like having rivals nearby.  Everytime they don't have to travel 4 hours to Sudbury is  abonus for them.  Everytime I don't travel 4 hours to Sudbury is a victory for me, but that's another story  (My 2 year streak was recently broken with a trip to the inlaws).

I can't see this arena being "major league" in any way.  It may look and feel "major league", but will only ever place host to "minor league" events.

there is one positive coming out of my fantasy though, the return of Jim Tatti to TV, even if I need to subscribe to the knitting network to see it.  Yes Guy.  Anyone know if Bill bird and Don Martin are still around?  We're getting the old gang back together.

 

[bustaheims]

Exactly, who is going to broadcast their games, certainly no TSN or Sportsnet. We don't need another team.

If there's money to be made there, TSN or Sportsnet will gladly broadcast their games.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Everytime they don't have to travel 4 hours to Sudbury is  abonus for them.  Everytime I don't travel 4 hours to Sudbury is a victory for me, but that's another story  (My 2 year streak was recently broken with a trip to the inlaws).

Hey, hey! Leave Sudbury out of this!

 

[Fletch]

Exactly, who is going to broadcast their games, certainly no TSN or Sportsnet. We don't need another team.

If there's money to be made there, TSN or Sportsnet will gladly broadcast their games.

TSN or Sportsnet might make some money, but, Bell and Rogers, the parent companies, risk losing fans, and in turn, money, by promoting the competition.

TSN could theoretically make money by selling advertising to Sportsnet.  During Off The Record, they could show commercials telling us to tune in to SportsnetConnected at 6.  They would never do it because it promotes the competition, and risks losing viewers.

I truly think that Rogers and Bell would combine to make any new team's existence miserable.

 

[Fletch]

Everytime they don't have to travel 4 hours to Sudbury is  abonus for them.  Everytime I don't travel 4 hours to Sudbury is a victory for me, but that's another story  (My 2 year streak was recently broken with a trip to the inlaws).

I was trying to think of a long road trip.  Sudbury was the best I could do for a Toronto area team.  I would have much preferred to say North Bay, but they lost their junior team a decade ago.  I have a streak of 7 years of not visiting North Bay.  I could go back and edit the post to be Sarnia or Windsor, if that makes it better. 

Hey, hey! Leave Sudbury out of this!

 

[bustaheims]

TSN or Sportsnet might make some money, but, Bell and Rogers, the parent companies, risk losing fans, and in turn, money, by promoting the competition.

TSN could theoretically make money by selling advertising to Sportsnet.  During Off The Record, they could show commercials telling us to tune in to SportsnetConnected at 6.  They would never do it because it promotes the competition, and risks losing viewers.

I truly think that Rogers and Bell would combine to make any new team's existence miserable.

Well, being that Bell and Rogers own TSN and Sportsnet, respectively, if the networks make money then the parent companies make money, and, at the end of the day, that is their primary concern.

As for losing the fans, I mean, sure, if you don't understand anything about brand loyalty - especially when it comes to sports fanaticism. They wouldn't be broadcasting these games instead of Leaf games, but in addition to. Current Leaf fans won't abandon the Leafs for this new team just because their games are on TV. They'll still watch the Leafs ahead of all others on nights when they play. The amount of eyeballs they'll lose by broadcasting the other teams games would be minimal in comparison to what they could potentially gain by having them.

At the end of the day, Bell and Rogers are in the business of making money. If the new team represents potential for an increase in their overall profit margins, they'll welcome them with open arms.

 

[Fletch]

TSN or Sportsnet might make some money, but, Bell and Rogers, the parent companies, risk losing fans, and in turn, money, by promoting the competition.

TSN could theoretically make money by selling advertising to Sportsnet.  During Off The Record, they could show commercials telling us to tune in to SportsnetConnected at 6.  They would never do it because it promotes the competition, and risks losing viewers.

I truly think that Rogers and Bell would combine to make any new team's existence miserable.

Well, being that Bell and Rogers own TSN and Sportsnet, respectively, if the networks make money then the parent companies make money, and, at the end of the day, that is their primary concern.

As for losing the fans, I mean, sure, if you don't understand anything about brand loyalty - especially when it comes to sports fanaticism. They wouldn't be broadcasting these games instead of Leaf games, but in addition to. Current Leaf fans won't abandon the Leafs for this new team just because their games are on TV. They'll still watch the Leafs ahead of all others on nights when they play. The amount of eyeballs they'll lose by broadcasting the other teams games would be minimal in comparison to what they could potentially gain by having them.

At the end of the day, Bell and Rogers are in the business of making money. If the new team represents potential for an increase in their overall profit margins, they'll welcome them with open arms.

I get that TSN and Sportsnet are owned by Bell and Rogers, respectively.  That, in itself, doesn't mean that the parent companies make money just because the child companies do.  There are other factors at play. 

I am a Leafs fan.  I have been since my grandmother gave me my first Leafs sweater when I was 5 or 6.  Had she given me a Habs sweater, who knows how things might have turned out.  It was hard to be a Leafs fan, growing up in North Bay.  We saw more Canadiens games than Leafs games, even after Ron would say Quebec east will see Montreal vs. Boston, Ontario west will see Toronto vs. Detroit, we still often got Montreal vs. Boston.  I stayed loyal to the Leafs through the Ballard years, and still talk about Kerry Fraser's missed call.  I will always support the Leafs.  The lost revenue I see is "future" revenue.  How many grandmothers will go to Vaughan Mills mall and get their grandson a John Tavares Markham Islanders jersey for Christmas?  How many future fans do the Leafs risk losing to meddling grandmothers? How many future dollars do the Leafs risk losing to meddling grandmothers?  Us 40-something fans won't jump ship, but our kids, who have never even seen a playoff game, might.

 

[bustaheims]

I get that TSN and Sportsnet are owned by Bell and Rogers, respectively.  That, in itself, doesn't mean that the parent companies make money just because the child companies do.  There are other factors at play. 

I am a Leafs fan.  I have been since my grandmother gave me my first Leafs sweater when I was 5 or 6.  Had she given me a Habs sweater, who knows how things might have turned out.  It was hard to be a Leafs fan, growing up in North Bay.  We saw more Canadiens games than Leafs games, even after Ron would say Quebec east will see Montreal vs. Boston, Ontario west will see Toronto vs. Detroit, we still often got Montreal vs. Boston.  I stayed loyal to the Leafs through the Ballard years, and still talk about Kerry Fraser's missed call.  I will always support the Leafs.  The lost revenue I see is "future" revenue.  How many grandmothers will go to Vaughan Mills mall and get their grandson a John Tavares Markham Islanders jersey for Christmas?  How many future fans do the Leafs risk losing to meddling grandmothers? How many future dollars do the Leafs risk losing to meddling grandmothers?  Us 40-something fans won't jump ship, but our kids, who have never even seen a playoff game, might.

How much market share have the Rangers lost to the Islanders? Not a whole lot. The Rangers are still, by far, the dominant team in the NYC area, and the Leafs would still be the dominant team, by far, in the GTA.

The potential future revenues lost would be significantly outpaced by potential future revenues gained.

 

[bustaheims]

And, let's not forget that this arena still has a few obstacles to overcome before they get to the point where they'll be breaking ground. We're probably 5 years away from an NHL team potentially moving in. What young Leaf fans have seen to this point is sort of irrelevant. I mean, the Leafs could be a Cup contender by the time this all plays out. Who knows? All this handwringing about losing young fans to this new team because the Leafs are bad now ignores the reality of the timeline here.

 

[Fletch]

And, let's not forget that this arena still has a few obstacles to overcome before they get to the point where they'll be breaking ground. We're probably 5 years away from an NHL team potentially moving in. What young Leaf fans have seen to this point is sort of irrelevant. I mean, the Leafs could be a Cup contender by the time this all plays out. Who knows? All this handwringing about losing young fans to this new team because the Leafs are bad now ignores the reality of the timeline here.

The paragraph would have been just as valid had I not said anything about losing.  The reality is kids are impressionable; that was my point.  The Leafs weren't very good when I was 5 or 6 either.  They finished 3rd in 4 team Adams divisions in 75 and 76.  I got a Leafs sweater from a grandmother who never watched a game in her life, and I became a fan.  The Leafs could win 5 cups between now and the time the arena opens, (which according to what I have read will be in time to host the 2014 World Juniors, but is probably, realistically, a lot closer to your timeline of 5 years).  That doesn't change the fact that, when a team moves here, the market will be flooded with merchandise.  Kids will want it.  Kids will get it.  Kids will support the team.

I used to say "There is no such thing as an Ottawa Senators fan, only misguided, confused Leafs and Habs fans".  I now have to change that.  The team has been around 15-20 years.  There are now children of misguided Leafs fans who were given Sens jerseys as kids, who now call this team "their team".  I know that this is not the same, as they are well outside Leafs territory, but the argument is that these kids are true fans, having grown up, all their lives, supporting their team.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I was trying to think of a long road trip.  Sudbury was the best I could do for a Toronto area team.  I would have much preferred to say North Bay, but they lost their junior team a decade ago.  I have a streak of 7 years of not visiting North Bay.  I could go back and edit the post to be Sarnia or Windsor, if that makes it better. 

Sault Ste. Marie is 7-8 hours from Toronto.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Former Bauer Canada head Graeme Roustan now chairman and CEO in charge of the proposed Markham arena, and,  also announced that a venue manager as well as a food service provider have been secured.

The venue manager Global Spectrum, a subsidiary of Comcast-Spectator, owned by Flyers owner Ed Snider, and....

....the food service provider is Delaware North Companies, owned by Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs.

(One, Jacobs, is a member of the BOG, and the other, Snider, being chairman of the league's executive committee and one of it's more powerful & influential members).

Hmm...

The fact is, with an NHL team, the companies owned by those men will stand to make far more money than they would without a big-league tenant. You don?t suppose Snider and Jacobs would be in favor of a struggling market relocating to the most fertile hockey market on the planet, do you? And you?d have to think Jacobs and Snider could rally far more board of governors support for a team in Toronto than the Maple Leafs could muster to oppose the move.

The Maple Leafs, by the way, believe they have a veto over any NHL competitor moving into their territory. The league disagrees and feels it has the legal foundation to put a team wherever it wants. And that will someday be in Toronto.

Source: THN