Relocation. Relocation. Relocation.

[bustaheims]

I'm sure it's a fabulous place filled with wonderful people. That's one of the many reasons why I'd hate to see them waste their money on an arena that private industry can't support.

I agree that, without a major league sports team to fill it, this arena is a bad idea, but, unlike some of the other examples of publicly funded arenas in the US, I think, with an NHL team, this one wouldn't be the boondoggle many of those have been.

Of course, they're a long way from having an NHL team . . .

 

[Kin]

I agree that, without a major league sports team to fill it, this arena is a bad idea, but, unlike some of the other examples of publicly funded arenas in the US, I think, with an NHL team, this one wouldn't be the boondoggle many of those have been.

Of course, they're a long way from having an NHL team . . .

That would fly in the face of just about anything I've ever read on the subject. The issue is never the level of support for the team or anything like that. It's always whether the supposed benefits to the tax base are such that it justifies the investment over other potential uses of public money. Even if you leave aside examples like Glendale where they're a distinct and unavoidable failure all of the research I've ever read on the subject, even on the situations where the arenas are "successful", says it isn't.

 

[bustaheims]

That would fly in the face of just about anything I've ever read on the subject. The issue is never the level of support for the team or anything like that. It's always whether the supposed benefits to the tax base are such that it justifies the investment over other potential uses of public money. Even if you leave aside examples like Glendale where they're a distinct and unavoidable failure all of the research I've ever read on the subject, even on the situations where the arenas are "successful", says it isn't.

I never said successful, just not the boondoggle those arenas have been.

 

[Kin]

I never said successful, just not the boondoggle those arenas have been.

But by "those arenas" do you mean Glendale or your non-disastrous Arenas that are generally just seen as poor uses of public money? Because saying that it'd be better than Glendale isn't saying much, saying that it'd be better than the general consensus on public money for arenas doesn't strike me as having a basis in fact. 

 

[hockeyfan1]

An example of two "letters to the editor" expressing concern over the Markham arena project...

http://www.yorkregion.com/opinion/article/1398848--why-own-arena-when-not-sharing-in-profits

http://www.yorkregion.com/opinion/article/1408338--if-arena-so-great-let-private-business-do-it

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm from the dreaded north..Approximately 4 hours from Toronto. I don't see why I would rather stop in York/Markham or wherever when I can travel the extra 45 minutes into downtown, park my car and walk to the water front. Walk to the ACC. Walk to the Rogers Centre. Walk to the Molson Amphitheatre. The only reason I ever spend time in the Vaughan area is if the wife drags me shopping.
So no, I don't think saving an extra half hour would make much difference to anyone up here. We're use to the long drive to see things at 20,000 seat venues. I'll travel the 8 hours to Montreal to see a game and generally do 2 or 3 times a year. I'll travel to Ottawa to see a concert or game which is a 5.5 hr drive.

But that's all irrelevant right now. The last time I checked, the Leafs said they'd block any new team that could/would be brought into their area. Now I realize that this is a new ownership group, but that's means squat so far.
Building a large arena just for the sake of it is ridiculous. Doing it with the thought process that one day, maybe one special day, maybe if you're lucky, you'll get to have an NHL team play in your arena is a$$ backwards in my books. Just my opinion though.

 

[maplesyrup]

Well, realistically, while I was including 705ers, I wasn't really including folks that far north. I was thinking Barrie, Orillia, etc. If you're going as far as you are then yeah, may as well make a trip of it. I'm in Newmarket and the saved time would probably mean I could get home from work, pickup the kids, and make it in time for a game/concert AND get back to work the next day, bright-eyed and bushy tailed. For you, well, you're not exactly "surrounding area" there are you?   

 

[jonlleafs]

Dunno if this was asked yet as I didn't read the whole thread.  But, how many of you would cheer for a new Toronto NHL team if there were one?  Would you still be Leafs fans or switch over completely?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Well, realistically, while I was including 705ers, I wasn't really including folks that far north. I was thinking Barrie, Orillia, etc. If you're going as far as you are then yeah, may as well make a trip of it. I'm in Newmarket and the saved time would probably mean I could get home from work, pickup the kids, and make it in time for a game/concert AND get back to work the next day, bright-eyed and bushy tailed. For you, well, you're not exactly "surrounding area" there are you? 

No, not surrounding area by any means. And I understand the appeal to you in having a rink closer to Newmarket. I'd guess it would be no more out of your pocket in taxes either?

 

[maplesyrup]

No, not surrounding area by any means. And I understand the appeal to you in having a rink closer to Newmarket. I'd guess it would be no more out of your pocket in taxes either?

If it's out of the city of Markham's pocket, no. Not at all.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Dunno if this was asked yet as I didn't read the whole thread.  But, how many of you would cheer for a new Toronto NHL team if there were one?  Would you still be Leafs fans or switch over completely?

There's so many marketing principles involved in why the vast majority of Leaf fans wouldn't switch allegiances it's mind boggling.

It would however give casual hockey fans/non-Leafs fans who just happen to live in the area a place to go and watch (presumably) affordable hockey though, so there's that. 

 

[maplesyrup]

Dunno if this was asked yet as I didn't read the whole thread.  But, how many of you would cheer for a new Toronto NHL team if there were one?  Would you still be Leafs fans or switch over completely?

There's so many marketing principles involved in why the vast majority of Leaf fans wouldn't switch allegiances it's mind boggling.

It would however give casual hockey fans/non-Leafs fans who just happen to live in the area a place to go and watch (presumably) affordable hockey though, so there's that.

I've thought about this and I've come to the conclusion that I might be only a third of the whole equation. I mean, there's;

1. Me.
2. The Leafs and what they do to keep my allegiance.
3. The newer/closer team and what they do to pull me away.

I've also wondered if it would be possible to suppost two teams in such close proximity and while I think that might be possible at first, something would eventually have to give.

 

[Kin]

I'd hate to think there were a sizable amount of Leafs fans who were only Leafs fans because geography didn't present them with a more attractive alternative.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Dunno if this was asked yet as I didn't read the whole thread.  But, how many of you would cheer for a new Toronto NHL team if there were one?  Would you still be Leafs fans or switch over completely?

There's so many marketing principles involved in why the vast majority of Leaf fans wouldn't switch allegiances it's mind boggling.

It would however give casual hockey fans/non-Leafs fans who just happen to live in the area a place to go and watch (presumably) affordable hockey though, so there's that.

I've thought about this and I've come to the conclusion that I might be only a third of the whole equation. I mean, there's;

1. Me.
2. The Leafs and what they do to keep my allegiance.
3. The newer/closer team and what they do to pull me away.

I've also wondered if it would be possible to suppost two teams in such close proximity and while I think that might be possible at first, something would eventually have to give.

Maybe it's just me, but the Leafs never did anything to get my allegiance in the first place - I just grew up on watching them and it was just 'organic' I suppose that I would cheer for them.  I can't imagine cheering for another NHL team, nor needing my allegiance kept - it's a natural thing that isn't reinforced by something the Leafs do/don't do every season.

Look at all the Leafs fans who remain Leafs fans living in Ottawa.

 

[Hampreacher]

What about two in same arena like Lakers and clippers in NBA?

 

[maplesyrup]

Dunno if this was asked yet as I didn't read the whole thread.  But, how many of you would cheer for a new Toronto NHL team if there were one?  Would you still be Leafs fans or switch over completely?

There's so many marketing principles involved in why the vast majority of Leaf fans wouldn't switch allegiances it's mind boggling.

It would however give casual hockey fans/non-Leafs fans who just happen to live in the area a place to go and watch (presumably) affordable hockey though, so there's that.

I've thought about this and I've come to the conclusion that I might be only a third of the whole equation. I mean, there's;

1. Me.
2. The Leafs and what they do to keep my allegiance.
3. The newer/closer team and what they do to pull me away.

I've also wondered if it would be possible to suppost two teams in such close proximity and while I think that might be possible at first, something would eventually have to give.

Maybe it's just me, but the Leafs never did anything to get my allegiance in the first place - I just grew up on watching them and it was just 'organic' I suppose that I would cheer for them.  I can't imagine cheering for another NHL team, nor needing my allegiance kept - it's a natural thing that isn't reinforced by something the Leafs do/don't do every season.

Look at all the Leafs fans who remain Leafs fans living in Ottawa.

It was "organic" for me too. I'd like to think I'd be a Leaf fan forever but I really don't know what would happen if a team dropped into my backyard.

 

[lamajama]

I think it would really come down to the fans like myself who are masochists
it seems.... to those who are more casual fans whose allegiance is fleeting and more due to proximity.

When the new team outperforms the Leafs (and as I've said before that's almost a given if it's a transfer) it'll be a lot easier to jump ship.

The scary thing to me is that I do not believe that the Leafs can compete
with another team. By that I mean they've been such a huge clusterbomb
with no competition what will they do with competition. I really want to believe that they have never planned on being so inept. What would allow them to change now.. :-[

 

[OldTimeHockey]

No, not surrounding area by any means. And I understand the appeal to you in having a rink closer to Newmarket. I'd guess it would be no more out of your pocket in taxes either?

If it's out of the city of Markham's pocket, no. Not at all.

Well, then I can see why you would be so supportive of Markham building it.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Look at all the Leafs fans who remain Leafs fans living in Ottawa.

While some stayed loyal..I know many that jumped ship and went on to cheer Ottawa. But I wouldn't consider them more than casual fans. Look at that building once the team is losing.

 

[maplesyrup]

I think it would really come down to the fans like myself who are masochists
it seems.... to those who are more casual fans whose allegiance is fleeting and more due to proximity.

Make no mistake, it would take a lot more than geography to make me bail on my Leafs. I mean, if geography was the sole factor behind the teams I choose to support I'd be a Bills fan. * shudders *  Really, switching allegiences isn't something I plan on doing at all but at the same time, I'm not naive enough to profess it would never happen.