Sharks vs. Maple Leafs - Jan. 6th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590

[Joe S.]

11.5 is a LOT o'money

He's a lot of player. Personally I don't care anymore what any of them make. We are getting to witness greatness with this core so enjoy it while it lasts.
Next year might be a little tight but JT's coming off the books after next season and will take a huge discount or be gone.

Leafs screwed up if they could have gotten him signed sooner. When rumours started and maybe they were just that Leafs were offering just under 10 willy wanted over 10 and the numbers just kept going up. When I mentioned 11 you said he wouldn't get that because of his defence and now we are talking 11.5. Not going to argue with you GT we are witnessing some greatness but in the end it's the playoffs that matter and if there isn't any gains this year we'll be talking about the same thing come summer.

You?re making a lot of assumptions. You don?t know what could have been done or what would have been accepted. There?s absolutely nothing to back up any claims that the leafs could have gotten it done in the summer.

And if only the playoffs matter, Nylander has been one of the best playoff performers on this team every season.

 

[Joe S.]

I will say this. I've been watching the Leafs for decades. I'm hard pressed to think of a more entertaining player in a Leafs jersey. He gets skating around in the o-zone and every person in the building and watching on the video screen at home or in the bar - including Nylander - doesn't know what he's going to do next. That keeps you on the edge of your seat. Paul Maurice remarked about it last May during the playoffs. He marches to the beat of his own drum and doesn't seem to give a crap about what anyone else thinks. He's like an artist on wheels - he's going to do what ever pops into his head. In doing so, he pulls off some amazing, unpredictable, indefensible plays.

He reminds me sometimes of Mogilny without the screwed up back. He has that same nonchalance about him as well.

 

[cw]

Back to the game

It is only 2 games against weaker competition- not enough to be sure of anything. I don't think it is a permanent solution. However, so far, I think Holmberg seems to improve the third line. It seems steadier to me. I presume we'll see how that holds up against tougher competition.

4th line had another respectable game. Likewise, we'll see how that holds up against tougher competition.

After San Jose next Tuesday, schedule gets tougher.

 

[cw]

I will say this. I've been watching the Leafs for decades. I'm hard pressed to think of a more entertaining player in a Leafs jersey. He gets skating around in the o-zone and every person in the building and watching on the video screen at home or in the bar - including Nylander - doesn't know what he's going to do next. That keeps you on the edge of your seat. Paul Maurice remarked about it last May during the playoffs. He marches to the beat of his own drum and doesn't seem to give a crap about what anyone else thinks. He's like an artist on wheels - he's going to do what ever pops into his head. In doing so, he pulls off some amazing, unpredictable, indefensible plays.

He reminds me sometimes of Mogilny without the screwed up back. He has that same nonchalance about him as well.

Mogilny popped into my head as I wrote that. He's probably the closest. Yet they are very different in some ways. I may be overlooking someone but Mogilny strikes as the most skilled Leaf I ever saw - even though he was not in his prime. Why Mogilny isn't in the Hall of Fame is beyond my comprehension. He was a special player.

 

[Redleaf]

This is an exciting team to watch. No question. However, this is also the closest shot we?ve had to win it all, at least talent wise, since the Gilmour days in the early 90?s.

They really need to do whatever it takes to put this team over the top. The best way I can see to accomplish that is to trade some high end offence for high end defence. Make them tighter, more well rounded and tougher opponents to play against in the playoffs.  They need to be better defensively, even if it means taking away from the high flying offence they have.

I really hope this is what Treliving has in mind and that signing Nylander isn?t a sign the organization is happy to just run it all back again?.Pay the forwards and fill defensive holes as needed. That works fine for the regular season , but hasn?t done much for them come playoff time.

They need an entire new mindset here.

 

[Bullfrog]

Thinking of all season, but also of how he stick-handled through players along the blueline, he's playing very Jagr-like this season. The strength he's added to his legs during his career and the way he protects the puck and strips it from defenders reminds me of Jaromir

 

[cw]

This is an exciting team to watch. No question. However, this is also the closest shot we?ve had to win it all, at least talent wise, since the Gilmour days in the early 90?s.

They really need to do whatever it takes to put this team over the top. The best way I can see to accomplish that is to trade some high end offence for high end defence. Make them tighter, more well rounded and tougher opponents to play against in the playoffs.  They need to be better defensively, even if it means taking away from the high flying offence they have.

I really hope this is what Treliving has in mind and that signing Nylander isn?t a sign the organization is happy to just run it all back again?.Pay the forwards and fill defensive holes as needed. That works fine for the regular season , but hasn?t done much for them come playoff time.

They need an entire new mindset here.

I responded to this here:

https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?msg=491709

 

[azzurri63]

11.5 is a LOT o'money

He's a lot of player. Personally I don't care anymore what any of them make. We are getting to witness greatness with this core so enjoy it while it lasts.
Next year might be a little tight but JT's coming off the books after next season and will take a huge discount or be gone.

Leafs screwed up if they could have gotten him signed sooner. When rumours started and maybe they were just that Leafs were offering just under 10 willy wanted over 10 and the numbers just kept going up. When I mentioned 11 you said he wouldn't get that because of his defence and now we are talking 11.5. Not going to argue with you GT we are witnessing some greatness but in the end it's the playoffs that matter and if there isn't any gains this year we'll be talking about the same thing come summer.

You?re making a lot of assumptions. You don?t know what could have been done or what would have been accepted. There?s absolutely nothing to back up any claims that the leafs could have gotten it done in the summer.

And if only the playoffs matter, Nylander has been one of the best playoff performers on this team every season.

I'm just going by what's being thrown out there. That's all we can do. Rumours were he was asking for over 10 Leafs wanted to keep it under that. Now we are talking 11.5 after 11.25 was reported. We'll see where they end up. I can see with his Dad getting involved again as reported, he'll try getting even more out of them. You guys know my stance on the core and how it's worked. Only good thing and unfortunately we have to wait another year is Tavares coming off the books.

 

[azzurri63]

11.5 is a LOT o'money

He's a lot of player. Personally I don't care anymore what any of them make. We are getting to witness greatness with this core so enjoy it while it lasts.
Next year might be a little tight but JT's coming off the books after next season and will take a huge discount or be gone.

Leafs screwed up if they could have gotten him signed sooner. When rumours started and maybe they were just that Leafs were offering just under 10 willy wanted over 10 and the numbers just kept going up. When I mentioned 11 you said he wouldn't get that because of his defence and now we are talking 11.5. Not going to argue with you GT we are witnessing some greatness but in the end it's the playoffs that matter and if there isn't any gains this year we'll be talking about the same thing come summer.

Thats the thing...would love to see them win but in the grand scheme it won't make my summer any better. What do we actually get by them winning?  Nothing. Enjoy it for what it is...entertainment.

Other than satisfaction we get nothing but sure would be nice to get rid of the wait and shut up other teams fans. Leafs are the laughing stock with the drought and perennial failure. When Italy won the World Cup it was a massive celebration even in my small town. Be the same in TO if these guys could ever pull it off.

 

[L K]

Back to the game

It is only 2 games against weaker competition- not enough to be sure of anything. I don't think it is a permanent solution. However, so far, I think Holmberg seems to improve the third line. It seems steadier to me. I presume we'll see how that holds up against tougher competition.

4th line had another respectable game. Likewise, we'll see how that holds up against tougher competition.

After San Jose next Tuesday, schedule gets tougher.

Holmberg for me seems like a guy who looks good for a couple of games and then gets lost for a while.  I think the best thing for the team would be having the ability to rotate guys like McMann, Holmberg, Steeves, Robertson in and out of the lineup based on how they are performing.  Not as a sign that they are bad players but that none of them are so good that they should have roster spots cemented regardless of performance.

 

[Arn]

Back to the game

It is only 2 games against weaker competition- not enough to be sure of anything. I don't think it is a permanent solution. However, so far, I think Holmberg seems to improve the third line. It seems steadier to me. I presume we'll see how that holds up against tougher competition.

4th line had another respectable game. Likewise, we'll see how that holds up against tougher competition.

After San Jose next Tuesday, schedule gets tougher.

Holmberg for me seems like a guy who looks good for a couple of games and then gets lost for a while.  I think the best thing for the team would be having the ability to rotate guys like McMann, Holmberg, Steeves, Robertson in and out of the lineup based on how they are performing.  Not as a sign that they are bad players but that none of them are so good that they should have roster spots cemented regardless of performance.

Outside of the top 2 lines I?m surprised they don?t do this more. Probably a waivers thing I suppose.

 

[bustaheims]

Outside of the top 2 lines I?m surprised they don?t do this more. Probably a waivers thing I suppose.

Waivers is definitely a factor, but I also suspect the sports psychologists and such have shown a degree of benefits from predictability/stability in terms of holding a roster/lineup spot. Changing things up too frequently definitely has potential for confusion and such.

 

[cw]

Outside of the top 2 lines I?m surprised they don?t do this more. Probably a waivers thing I suppose.

Waivers is definitely a factor, but I also suspect the sports psychologists and such have shown a degree of benefits from predictability/stability in terms of holding a roster/lineup spot. Changing things up too frequently definitely has potential for confusion and such.

That seems to resonate with how Keefe expressed it. (loosely paraphrased) "Robertson had a run of 24 (?) games to give us a sense of what he brings. We'd like to give Holmberg a little run to see what he offers ..." so the player coming in isn't stressed - down to one game to impress. He gets a little stretch to create a small body of work. The player sitting out has a stretch to address aches and pains or things he needs to work on without going through daily gyrations of ramping up to get ready to play daily wondering "am I in today ? .." and then getting disappointed that he isn't. Reduces the emotional roller coaster.

That can go out the window if someone is making a bunch of boneheaded plays and needs to get yanked.

There might be some history involved here. Keefe seemed to really like Holmberg's game at times last year. He was nearly a ppg in the AHL over 10+ games this season - so he showed some signs of improving his offense. Keefe seemed to indicate that they felt he'd earned a look.

Logically, adding a guy who is stronger defensively to a line that hasn't been so hot defensively is a reasonable thing to try.

Though if it were me, the guy I'd try there is McMann. He gives the line some muscle. He skates well. He may not have as much defensive conscience as Holmberg but he tries to manage the puck and check. Part of the appeal is Domi's talent is as a passer and McMann's talent is as a finisher who will go to the dirty areas of the ice. McMann is more likely to carry Robertson's offense than Holmberg while improving the defense over Robertson and how tough that line will be to play against. He could also help the second power play because he's not a perimeter player. There seems to be some sort of preconceived pecking order - likely because they see stuff I haven't - so I doubt it will happen.

 

[Chris]

Outside of the top 2 lines I?m surprised they don?t do this more. Probably a waivers thing I suppose.

Waivers is definitely a factor, but I also suspect the sports psychologists and such have shown a degree of benefits from predictability/stability in terms of holding a roster/lineup spot. Changing things up too frequently definitely has potential for confusion and such.

That seems to resonate with how Keefe expressed it. (loosely paraphrased) "Robertson had a run of 24 (?) games to give us a sense of what he brings. We'd like to give Holmberg a little run to see what he offers ..." so the player coming in isn't stressed - down to one game to impress. He gets a little stretch to create a small body of work. The player sitting out has a stretch to address aches and pains or things he needs to work on without going through daily gyrations of ramping up to get ready to play daily wondering "am I in today ? .." and then getting disappointed that he isn't. Reduces the emotional roller coaster.

That can go out the window if someone is making a bunch of boneheaded plays and needs to get yanked.

There might be some history involved here. Keefe seemed to really like Holmberg's game at times last year. He was nearly a ppg in the AHL over 10+ games this season - so he showed some signs of improving his offense. Keefe seemed to indicate that they felt he'd earned a look.

Logically, adding a guy who is stronger defensively to a line that hasn't been so hot defensively is a reasonable thing to try.

Though if it were me, the guy I'd try there is McMann. He gives the line some muscle. He skates well. He may not have as much defensive conscience as Holmberg but he tries to manage the puck and check. Part of the appeal is Domi's talent is as a passer and McMann's talent is as a finisher who will go to the dirty areas of the ice. McMann is more likely to carry Robertson's offense than Holmberg while improving the defense over Robertson and how tough that line will be to play against. He could also help the second power play because he's not a perimeter player. There seems to be some sort of preconceived pecking order - likely because they see stuff I haven't - so I doubt it will happen.

I kind of get the feeling that "they" see Holmberg as being a bigger part of this team in the future, while McMann is viewed more as a temporary/plug-in spare part. Maybe it's the age thing. Maybe as you say, I'm not seeing stuff but McMann looks like a guy who could contribute more with more offensive minded linemates. I'd also like to see him with Domi.

 

[cw]

Outside of the top 2 lines I?m surprised they don?t do this more. Probably a waivers thing I suppose.

Waivers is definitely a factor, but I also suspect the sports psychologists and such have shown a degree of benefits from predictability/stability in terms of holding a roster/lineup spot. Changing things up too frequently definitely has potential for confusion and such.

That seems to resonate with how Keefe expressed it. (loosely paraphrased) "Robertson had a run of 24 (?) games to give us a sense of what he brings. We'd like to give Holmberg a little run to see what he offers ..." so the player coming in isn't stressed - down to one game to impress. He gets a little stretch to create a small body of work. The player sitting out has a stretch to address aches and pains or things he needs to work on without going through daily gyrations of ramping up to get ready to play daily wondering "am I in today ? .." and then getting disappointed that he isn't. Reduces the emotional roller coaster.

That can go out the window if someone is making a bunch of boneheaded plays and needs to get yanked.

There might be some history involved here. Keefe seemed to really like Holmberg's game at times last year. He was nearly a ppg in the AHL over 10+ games this season - so he showed some signs of improving his offense. Keefe seemed to indicate that they felt he'd earned a look.

Logically, adding a guy who is stronger defensively to a line that hasn't been so hot defensively is a reasonable thing to try.

Though if it were me, the guy I'd try there is McMann. He gives the line some muscle. He skates well. He may not have as much defensive conscience as Holmberg but he tries to manage the puck and check. Part of the appeal is Domi's talent is as a passer and McMann's talent is as a finisher who will go to the dirty areas of the ice. McMann is more likely to carry Robertson's offense than Holmberg while improving the defense over Robertson and how tough that line will be to play against. He could also help the second power play because he's not a perimeter player. There seems to be some sort of preconceived pecking order - likely because they see stuff I haven't - so I doubt it will happen.

I kind of get the feeling that "they" see Holmberg as being a bigger part of this team in the future, while McMann is viewed more as a temporary/plug-in spare part. Maybe it's the age thing. Maybe as you say, I'm not seeing stuff but McMann looks like a guy who could contribute more with more offensive minded linemates. I'd also like to see him with Domi.

McMann had a pretty bad knee injury last year. His skating speed seems to be pretty good now. That might be a factor.

They could be trying to build a little trade value for either Robertson or Holmberg - or see if they can afford to trade Robertson.
As is, this roster is very unlikely to win anything.
They HAVE to be looking at getting a dman at the very least.
With the Nylander signing, they can focus on that.

Keefe's job is on the line. He's been coaching a long time. If he thought McMann could help him win games on the 3rd line, he probably would have already tried him there.

I looked at McMann's AHL goals - mostly 2021-22 as I recall. Half of them were within a hockey stick of the blue paint. This team has pretty consistently lost in the playoffs in significant part because the skating around the periphery doesn't work as well in the playoffs. You have to go to the net. Maybe more so than in decades gone by.

An underappreciated aspect of Tavares is that is where his office is. Many Leafs fans will remember Roberts or Andreychuck. That is where their office was. I like a lot of characteristics of Matt Knies but that is an area he could improve on. He has the size, strength, aptitude, guts and hands to be a force down there.

They don't seem to have many assets they can trade. They need a dman most. So to me, McMann made the most sense for that role on the 3rd line for the playoffs. If they can add a top 6 winger and push Bertuzzi down to that line, that could be better. But where are the spare assets to trade to do that?