Sun: Leafs interested in Joe Thornton

[Redleaf]

this has shades of owen nolan all over again..no thanks

So longs as it's not shades of Jason Allison. 

 

[Frank E]

I think improving the top line is pretty important.  They're getting a lot of goals but they're also on the ice for a lot of goals against - to the point it almost cancels each one out.  I think you need a true #1 C who can help go up against the other team's best night in, night out and hopefully help keep the puck in the other end more often.  I think it would go a long way to helping the club.

I really see the offensive depth as more of a problem. When the top line didn't produce last season, the team didn't score. That's a much bigger issue, as is improving the team's depth on defence and their overall defensive play. The Leafs need to transform themselves into a team that doesn't rely on their top line - not one that is even more heavily invested in it.

Well I think the lack of high-end two-way players, and the lack of good cycle-game players down low is the problem.  They tried to get some of that with Clarkson, but they just don't have those diggers on this team right now.

You've mentioned several times that the offensive zone possession numbers are not where they need to be, which resulted in a skewed shots against problem with this team.  Screwing around with 4th line players and 13 minute defensemen aren't going to fix that, you're going to need strong offensively gifted and reasonably decent defensive players that can play 20 minutes a night.  Those players don't come cheap, and you're going to have to gut a little bit of your depth and/or future to get them?or just blow it up and start over and draft them?don't you think?

 

[bustaheims]

You've mentioned several times that the offensive zone possession numbers are not where they need to be, which resulted in a skewed shots against problem with this team.  Screwing around with 4th line players and 13 minute defensemen aren't going to fix that, you're going to need strong offensively gifted and reasonably decent defensive players that can play 20 minutes a night.  Those players don't come cheap, and you're going to have to gut a little bit of your depth and/or future to get them?or just blow it up and start over and draft them?don't you think?

I'm not saying you just make those minor changes, but, to really have an impact in those areas, the improvement needs to come from forwards 4-12 on the depth charts, not 1-3 - because they're the ones who were actually getting things done. The improvement needs to come on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines much more than it needs to come from the 1st. Spending assets to improve a line that's already doing well instead of improving those that aren't is absolutely backwards - especially when a number of those assets would come from those lines, putting them further behind where they already are.

 

[ZBBM]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

 

[bustaheims]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

There's that, too - especially when it will almost certainly require high quality younger pieces to acquire him. As much as I'd love for the Leafs to add Thornton, unless they can get him for Clarkson and/or Gleason, it likely doesn't make sense for them.

 

[moon111]

Joe Thornton had 96 giveaways last season.  He's perfect for the Leafs!

 

[ZBBM]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

There's that, too - especially when it will almost certainly require high quality younger pieces to acquire him. As much as I'd love for the Leafs to add Thornton, unless they can get him for Clarkson and/or Gleason, it likely doesn't make sense for them.

Exactly.  I'd be happy to get rid of anybody on our current roster who's over, oh, say, 28. 

 

[mc]

Bret Hedican did a AMA on Reddit (i know....its a slow day):

Do you think there is any credibility to the rumors Thornton and/or Marleau might get traded?

BretHedican 71 points 5 hours ago
Yes, I think those rumors are credible. When Doug Wilson & Todd MacClellan both come out and say they want different leaders next year, I believe they're talking to them. But would you want to stay or go somewhere else? Decision will probably be their own to make, but the writing is on the wall.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/27kr52/i_am_bret_hedican_i_played_in_3_stanley_cup/

 

[Tigger]

From the Leafs perspective the reason you make this deal is to build a second scoring line, which really amplifies having Kadri and Holland to me. You don't know what you have there yet but both need to play. Kadri thrived when the pressure was off, sadly for Grabbo, if you're going all in on offense it could work but I don't think so in terms of a cup.

Paying any youth in this trade seems wrong headed for the Leafs, they're not there, they should be but they're not.

 

[nutman]

I think our first line is fine, Kadri and Holland can duel it out for the second, and Komorov can be resigned for the bottom six or a top six fill in when needed.  We are not in a place to add a guy like Joe, he is age wise in a whole different place. He is going to a team that is very close to winning the cup, not a team that is retooling.

I think the Leafs have a solid bunch of kids coming up, and just need to hold off on dealing any of them for now. our d is where the issues are, and Dion is a good trading chip, who could move us up in the draft, and free up some money to shore up the d.

 

[Redleaf]

I really see the offensive depth as more of a problem. When the top line didn't produce last season, the team didn't score. That's a much bigger issue, as is improving the team's depth on defence and their overall defensive play. The Leafs need to transform themselves into a team that doesn't rely on their top line - not one that is even more heavily invested in it.

I see this also. I get that Bozak isn't a prototypical 1st line center, but he gets it done, he brings defensive awareness to the top line and from where I'm watching, has improved every year he's played. He's certainly lessening the gap between him and a true top liner.

Another top 4 defenseman and a remodeled bottom 6 that helps the overall defensive game of the team are the biggest issues for me.

This. 100%.

 

[Redleaf]

You've mentioned several times that the offensive zone possession numbers are not where they need to be, which resulted in a skewed shots against problem with this team.  Screwing around with 4th line players and 13 minute defensemen aren't going to fix that, you're going to need strong offensively gifted and reasonably decent defensive players that can play 20 minutes a night.  Those players don't come cheap, and you're going to have to gut a little bit of your depth and/or future to get them?or just blow it up and start over and draft them?don't you think?

I'm not saying you just make those minor changes, but, to really have an impact in those areas, the improvement needs to come from forwards 4-12 on the depth charts, not 1-3 - because they're the ones who were actually getting things done. The improvement needs to come on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines much more than it needs to come from the 1st. Spending assets to improve a line that's already doing well instead of improving those that aren't is absolutely backwards - especially when a number of those assets would come from those lines, putting them further behind where they already are.

We don't agree often Busta, but this is one time we do. I think the mistake that was made last off season was dropping all that dough and term on a contract for Clarkson, when really what was needed was a top defensemen. Think about how much better this team could have been had they found the right guy on D, and NOT brought in Clarkson.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

I don't think they are several years away from contending. The East isn't particularly strong and outside of Boston there's no real continued dominant team like Chicago/LA in the West.  It's pretty wide open, IMO, and if you have the goaltending and offense that the Leafs do, they can pretty quickly be right there.

 

[ZBBM]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

I don't think they are several years away from contending. The East isn't particularly strong and outside of Boston there's no real continued dominant team like Chicago/LA in the West.  It's pretty wide open, IMO, and if you have the goaltending and offense that the Leafs do, they can pretty quickly be right there.

I wish I could share your optimism. First there's the matter of our newly reupped genius coach who's not about to change his spots and turn into a possession loving Gardiner loving guy. So there's a season or two right there of watching RC refuse to play to the roster strengths.

Setting that aside we are short at least two quality defensemen. When I watch a game like last night played at a playoff pace I just can't picture our defense even competing at that level. Even if through some miracle we made it to the finals we'd get pulverized by teams like LA.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

I don't think they are several years away from contending. The East isn't particularly strong and outside of Boston there's no real continued dominant team like Chicago/LA in the West.  It's pretty wide open, IMO, and if you have the goaltending and offense that the Leafs do, they can pretty quickly be right there.

I wish I could share your optimism. First there's the matter of our newly reupped genius coach who's not about to change his spots and turn into a possession loving Gardiner loving guy. So there's a season or two right there of watching RC refuse to play to the roster strengths.

Setting that aside we are short at least two quality defensemen. When I watch a game like last night played at a playoff pace I just can't picture our defense even competing at that level. Even if through some miracle we made it to the finals we'd get pulverized by teams like LA.

Well obviously my comment is predicated on some changes occurring for the better, but the point was that I don't think it has to be years away (and shouldn't be if they want to take advantage of the core's top years).

 

[Frank E]

Adding an expensive 35-year-old to a team that is several years away at best from contending doesn't make any sense.

I don't think they are several years away from contending. The East isn't particularly strong and outside of Boston there's no real continued dominant team like Chicago/LA in the West.  It's pretty wide open, IMO, and if you have the goaltending and offense that the Leafs do, they can pretty quickly be right there.

I wish I could share your optimism. First there's the matter of our newly reupped genius coach who's not about to change his spots and turn into a possession loving Gardiner loving guy. So there's a season or two right there of watching RC refuse to play to the roster strengths.

Setting that aside we are short at least two quality defensemen. When I watch a game like last night played at a playoff pace I just can't picture our defense even competing at that level. Even if through some miracle we made it to the finals we'd get pulverized by teams like LA.

He didn't play Gardiner enough for you?

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Well obviously my comment is predicated on some changes occurring for the better, but the point was that I don't think it has to be years away (and shouldn't be if they want to take advantage of the core's top years).

This is the way I see this team also. It probably won't be Joe Thornton, but I think this team is way closer to adding pieces to contend, than trading pieces to rebuild.

 

[Kin]

This is the way I see this team also. It probably won't be Joe Thornton, but I think this team is way closer to adding pieces to contend, than trading pieces to rebuild.

I bet there'd probably be broad agreement of that if it were acknowledged that the pieces they need to add in order to contend are the kinds of pieces that are really difficult to acquire and really hard to fit under the cap.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't think they are several years away from contending. The East isn't particularly strong and outside of Boston there's no real continued dominant team like Chicago/LA in the West.  It's pretty wide open, IMO, and if you have the goaltending and offense that the Leafs do, they can pretty quickly be right there.

There's a lot of truth in there, but, at the same time, to me, it says that being good enough to come out of the East and being Cup contenders are two very different things. The Leafs may not be several years away from the former, but I'm not so sure about the latter.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I bet there'd probably be broad agreement of that if it were acknowledged that the pieces they need to add in order to contend are the kinds of pieces that are really difficult to acquire and really hard to fit under the cap.

Absolutely, that's why those pieces are usually added at the end after years of alchemy in the GM's lair.

I think they should forge ahead, personally. Keep drafting and developing, however, turn over some pieces to augment our core, maybe a key veteran here or there. Our forward development is a bit ahead of our defensemen, but once Granberg, Percy, Finn, Gardiner and Rielly come into their own, we'll see some payoff I believe.