Sun: Leafs interested in Joe Thornton

[Kin]

I don't think we can compare the Leafs way with Chicago, without looking at what the landscape was when they were building their respective teams. Of course Kane and Toews would make a killing today if they hit the market, so would Kessel. Kessel's contract came up a year before those two, don't worry Chicago will pay through the nose next season for them.

Again, I think you're missing the point of the comparison. Yes, Chicago will have to pay those two more money when they negotiate with them next year and that will have cap implications. Maybe to the point where, like Pittsburgh, Chicago has to start making hard choices in terms of managing their depth.

But even if that's the case, they've already gotten 5 seasons from both of them where the team was a legit Stanley Cup contender and they were coming in at below market value which is a crucial element to how their team was built. Even if the Leafs become a legitimate cup contender next year, which we all agree is a longshot, then the Leafs will have gotten no years like that out of Kessel and Phaneuf which has a significant impact on their ability to add depth but makes it virtually impossible to add the elite players we're talking about unless you can get them signed to under market value deals which essentially rules out the UFA process.

The point I was trying to get to before was simply that the Leafs aren't in as bad a situation as some believe IMO, certainly not in a position to destroy the last few years of asset accumulation. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the Rangers are in the finals and they haven't really been "traditional" with their rebuild/ retool or whatever.

Right, and the point I've been trying to make is that the alternative avenues to the traditional rebuild are also ones where the Leafs face significant challenges because of a fairly poor accumulation of assets and bad cap management. The Rangers are where they are right now in large part because of their ability to make big trades like the St. Louis/Nash deals and sign big free agents which are hard to do if you don't manage the cap well.

But even then just making a cup finals, while great, isn't really indicative of building lasting success. Like my reference to the 2009-2010 Flyers, if your aim is just to build a team that can pull off some surprising series wins one year you're not really trying to build anything particularly noteworthy. The reason people are pointing to teams like the Kings and Blackhawks as models for team building is because they've constructed teams that are capable of being strong contenders for the cup based on the talent they have year-in and year-out which is pretty clearly the best way to eventually see a cup winner.

 

[bustaheims]

I think they could win a 7-game series against any team in the league if they were to make it that far, and by virtue of being one of the last 2 teams they would indeed be a 'contender' for the Stanley Cup.

You and I both know that when people talk about teams being contenders, that's not what they mean. Being in a position to compete for the Cup and being Cup contender mean different things.

 

[Britishbulldog]

The reason people are pointing to teams like the Kings and Blackhawks as models for team building is because they've constructed teams that are capable of being strong contenders for the cup based on the talent they have year-in and year-out which is pretty clearly the best way to eventually see a cup winner.

I would add Boston to that list.  If they had Chris Kelly, and especially Siedenberg and McQuade on defense instead of rookie Miller, Potter and Bartkowski I believe that they would have beaten Montreal and most likely NYR.  The only roster question mark for next year is probably Iginla.  That's pretty impressive.

 

[Deebo]

Cox is saying that according to his sources, the Leafs "have not kicked the tires on Joe Thornton".

 

[bustaheims]

Cox is saying that according to his sources, the Leafs "have not kicked the tires on Joe Thornton".

Dreger also said a lot of the same things people have been saying here - acquisition price is an issue, as is the cap and Thornton's NTC. He basically concluded the Leafs aren't a particularly likely option.

 

[Redleaf]

Cox is saying that according to his sources, the Leafs "have not kicked the tires on Joe Thornton".

Dreger also said a lot of the same things people have been saying here - acquisition price is an issue, as is the cap and Thornton's NTC. He basically concluded the Leafs aren't a particularly likely option.

I like a good rumour as much (or more) as the next guy, but most of us had discounted this one straight off the hop. Thornton to the Leafs just didn't make any sense whatsoever. Zeisberger should be ashamed of writing this article.

 

[Frank E]

Cox is saying that according to his sources, the Leafs "have not kicked the tires on Joe Thornton".

Dreger also said a lot of the same things people have been saying here - acquisition price is an issue, as is the cap and Thornton's NTC. He basically concluded the Leafs aren't a particularly likely option.

You'd still kick the tires and at least see if there's a fit.  I have to believe that the Leafs can't afford the asking price anyways, but you'd still window shop to make sure.

 

[bustaheims]

You'd still kick the tires and at least see if there's a fit.  I have to believe that the Leafs can't afford the asking price anyways, but you'd still window shop to make sure.

I'm sure that initial conversation will happen, if it hasn't already. I just don't think any further conversations will happen on the subject. The Leafs are going to be connected to every big name non-goalie this summer (like they are most summers), and while most of them will be appealing, they also mostly won't make sense for the Leafs overall.

 

[Kin]

You'd still kick the tires and at least see if there's a fit.  I have to believe that the Leafs can't afford the asking price anyways, but you'd still window shop to make sure.

Sure, but you have to be cognizant both of the use of idiom here and the need to manage public expectation. If the Leafs looked at their roster and realized that trading for Thornton either meant giving up pieces they weren't willing to part with or San Jose taking on pieces they almost certainly wouldn't then while you might "kick the tires" by way of phoning up Doug Wilson to see if you could catch him in a moment in extremely impaired judgment you'd almost certainly not admit to it and do whatever you could to quiet the idea that such a deal were in the cards.

 

[sneakyray]

mirtle is reporting that the cap looks like it will be in the 70 million dollar range this year and maybe as much as 76 million next year.

I guess a 76 million cap wouldn't make JT's cap hit so bad.

 

[Zee]

mirtle is reporting that the cap looks like it will be in the 70 million dollar range this year and maybe as much as 76 million next year.

I guess a 76 million cap wouldn't make JT's cap hit so bad.

It all depends on who is shipped out too.  If Phaneuf's $7M is off the books like some rumors are suggesting another $7M+ cap hit isn't bad.  Still don't like what i'm hearing about pieces involved for Thornton.  This guy is already 35, no way I want to ship out promising youth for him.

 

[Redleaf]

mirtle is reporting that the cap looks like it will be in the 70 million dollar range this year and maybe as much as 76 million next year.

I guess a 76 million cap wouldn't make JT's cap hit so bad.

It all depends on who is shipped out too.  If Phaneuf's $7M is off the books like some rumors are suggesting another $7M+ cap hit isn't bad.  Still don't like what i'm hearing about pieces involved for Thornton.  This guy is already 35, no way I want to ship out promising youth for him.

I wouldn't worry about it. The rumours been denied, and there isn't a hope in hell the Leafs acquire Thornton.

 

[Zee]

mirtle is reporting that the cap looks like it will be in the 70 million dollar range this year and maybe as much as 76 million next year.

I guess a 76 million cap wouldn't make JT's cap hit so bad.

It all depends on who is shipped out too.  If Phaneuf's $7M is off the books like some rumors are suggesting another $7M+ cap hit isn't bad.  Still don't like what i'm hearing about pieces involved for Thornton.  This guy is already 35, no way I want to ship out promising youth for him.

I wouldn't worry about it. The rumours been defined, and there isn't a hope in hell the Leafs acquire Thornton.

It would totally go against what Nonis has done in the past, he isn't known for shipping out young players to get back aging veterans, so I hope he sticks to that.

 

[Corn Flake]

Thornton for Phaneuf.

Wudja?

Kind of makes sense for both teams, is a wash cap wise until JT is UFA, addresses a need for SJ to use Dion to replace Boyle (if they think he's capable). The Leafs get a #1 centre who may be old but is still more than capable and they address the concern around Dion's leadership (if it's actually a concern and not media fabrication).

Leafs can then focus attention to improving defense, bump Bozak down to the 3rd line which places him in a better spot.

Not sure I would jump at it either but I think it's an interesting concept.

 

[Andy007]

Thornton for Phaneuf.

Wudja?

Kind of makes sense for both teams, is a wash cap wise until JT is UFA, addresses a need for SJ to use Dion to replace Boyle (if they think he's capable). The Leafs get a #1 centre who may be old but is still more than capable and they address the concern around Dion's leadership (if it's actually a concern and not media fabrication).

Leafs can then focus attention to improving defense, bump Bozak down to the 3rd line which places him in a better spot.

Not sure I would jump at it either but I think it's an interesting concept.

Thornton for Phaneuf straight up? I'd do that in a second.

 

[nutman]

Deon could fetch us a much younger top line center. Sorry I am not a fan of trading to get older.

 

[Andy007]

Deon could fetch us a much younger top line center. Sorry I am not a fan of trading to get older.

No, he won't.

 

[Kin]

I don't think it does much to help or hurt the Leafs really. It's sort of just shuffling the deck. Yeah, Thornton is arguably the top line center the team needs(although at this point I'd argue that he's more or less as much an elite center as Phaneuf is an elite defenseman) but ny improvement there is balanced by his age and the fact that the team probably needs a top line center a little bit less than they need an elite defenseman.

 

[Corn Flake]

Deon could fetch us a much younger top line center. Sorry I am not a fan of trading to get older.

Sure, if he could actually fetch that.  I agree with Andy I'm not so sure he could.

Maybe an E. Staal type trade.  Beyond that? Not likely getting anything a whole lot younger or better than Thornton.


edit: Joe will be 35 next season, but like Sundin he's pretty much an iron man. Missed a total of 5 NHL games in the last 5 seasons while putting up around a PPG as an assist machine. Put this guy in between Kessel and JVR and holy crap look out.  He has the size and strength to do a lot of good things in the slightly slower and weaker East.  He would immediately take a TON of pressure of Bozak and Kadri and basically would align the centre depth chart to where both of those guys should be in the pecking order.

Sure he wouldn't be your forever guy at the #1 centre position but we've been waiting since Sundin to have that guy.  It's a gaping hole that is proving to be extremely difficult to fill.

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't think it does much to help or hurt the Leafs really. It's sort of just shuffling the deck. Yeah, Thornton is arguably the top line center the team needs(although at this point I'd argue that he's more or less as much an elite center as Phaneuf is an elite defenseman) but ny improvement there is balanced by his age and the fact that the team probably needs a top line center a little bit less than they need an elite defenseman.

it changes the voice in the dressing room and if Phaneuf is as polarizing in the room as he is with the fans, then it could be a good thing.  Joe is a very different type of person and leader at least from what we can see and seems far more of an easy going guy off the ice than Phaneuf.  If Shanny thinks there truly is a leadership issue with Dion then this allows him to hit the reset button there, strengthen his team at one of its weakest positions, and look at options to shore up the defense in other ways.

I think they have two stud d-men in Rielly and Gardiner but both need time... I don't think Rielly will need much though.  They need complimentary defensive d-men who can stabilize things in the meantime and the right acquisitions could prove to be not that costly but go a long way to shoring things up.  Look at LA's defense.. not exactly high profile beyond Doughty but boy do they get the job done.