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cw said:
mr grieves said:
cw said:
Part of that comes around to my problem with Burke's acquisition of Kessel in the first place and the retooling plan. Burke wasn't likely to get a top 3 pick to deliver an elite center (or top flight winger). And Kessel was coming in under his second and last contract before UFA status so his time as a bargain was limited. It hampered and rushed trying to construct a young core with elite skill to play with Kessel. We were stuck with "found wallets" like Bozak. It was already apparent at that time that the chances of an elite UFA center coming on the market and arriving in Toronto were much slimer. The odds of Burke failing were correspondlingly increased.

So we can lament Kessel doesn't have someone as elite to play with but it was forseen by some when Burke made the deal. It's not like we can come up with an extensive list of such talent that Burke let slip through his fingers because the GMs were already locking it up before it hit the UFA market. And I don't see a center like that missed in the 2010-2012 drafts by the Leafs and playing up to a good level now.

Which more and more people are coming around to as the explanation for this era. The good parts they got were got without a sensible plan to buy the necessary other parts. Analogies to buying an Eames chair for your dorm room, fancy stereo for mom's old Corolla, Tiffany cufflinks for threadbare Value Village castoff present themselves.

I still wouldn't blame the chair, stereo, or cufflinks.

Also, I think still sort of think a bit more careful thought about who to hold and who to cut bait on, a more intelligent rolling of the roster, would've made this a somewhat better team over the last couple of years and made this a less ugly/painful process now. Then again, we wouldn't have Nylander and (hopefully) McDavid/Strome/Marner and whatever third piece we get next year to go along with Rielly.

I think the first step is getting rid of Nonis. Burke bears some responsibility for where we find ourselves but so does Dave. Some examples:

1. When Burke got gassed, Nonis continued top 6/bottom 6 that the majority of the league had moved away from and if the Leafs had done so sooner, I contend (and did while Burke was still around), it would have made them more competitive.

2. Nonis resisted doing anything in analytics until Shanahan gave him little choice. I don't think analytics is the answer to everything but it is key part of the future of assessing and managing talent in this sport. We've been discussing the flaws in NHL stats for nearly 20 years on line

3. Nonis signed a bunch of these contracts - some that are not going to be easy to unload - committing a couple of hundred million to the core of this roster. Someone else, not attached to the management legacy of these contracts, should shed them

4. Burke promised to change the culture of the franchise. Nonis promised to carry on that work. The roster we have today has more talent than they're demonstrating but the worst character as a group I've seen over the last 50 years. I question Nonis' judgement in collecting and committing contracts to this group of characters under the banner of "changing the culture" for the better.

5. Why is Morgan Rielly on this roster? What is the point? All it does is cost the Leafs contractually for the balance of his career because his agent is going to be walking into his next contract negotiation with a bunch of comparables to all the NHL games he's racked up.

Here's how a good NHL GM gets good value in a cap system from their kids:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html
here's a comparable:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008490.html

Case study: examine the price performance of Kronwall's contract history vs say Luke Schenn (not entirely fair/easy because they're not the same quality of player and timing).
But the Wings got Kronwall on his last deal for $3 mil/yr between 2008-2012.
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/player_stats/187-kronwall-niklas
The Leafs paid Luke Schenn between $2.975 and $3.6 mil/yr between 2009 and 2012
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/player_stats/1041-schenn-luke

Who do you think got the better value for their contract dollar?

There is a relationship between when a guy starts playing in the NHL and how much his contract is. Kronwall was a 1st rounder drafted in 2000 and didn't play full time in the NHL until 2006 - so they didn't have to pay him as much (one year delay maybe due to lockout). Schenn was drafted in June 2008 and started with the Leafs the following September.

Next summer (2016) we get to look forward to over paying Morgan Rielly, who could have still been playing on an entry deal if he was brought along more gradually,  because his agent will be pointing out he's played the third or fourth most NHL games out of his draft class. And when Morgan hits 25-26, he'll probably be finally settling in to play well like most good young NHL dman do ... heading for UFA status the following summer - where we'll be paying through the nose to keep him (instead of paying him Kronwall-like dollars for a second deal)- all because the Leafs lacked patience and smarts.

The first off season transaction should be showing Nonis the door. it's a no brainer. You almost can't go wrong on that decision. If they haven't got anyone lined up, hire/appoint someone on an interim basis to start cleaning up the mess.

darn that's depressing. The truth hurts. Good write up though
 
Boston Leaf said:
cw said:
mr grieves said:
cw said:
Part of that comes around to my problem with Burke's acquisition of Kessel in the first place and the retooling plan. Burke wasn't likely to get a top 3 pick to deliver an elite center (or top flight winger). And Kessel was coming in under his second and last contract before UFA status so his time as a bargain was limited. It hampered and rushed trying to construct a young core with elite skill to play with Kessel. We were stuck with "found wallets" like Bozak. It was already apparent at that time that the chances of an elite UFA center coming on the market and arriving in Toronto were much slimer. The odds of Burke failing were correspondlingly increased.

So we can lament Kessel doesn't have someone as elite to play with but it was forseen by some when Burke made the deal. It's not like we can come up with an extensive list of such talent that Burke let slip through his fingers because the GMs were already locking it up before it hit the UFA market. And I don't see a center like that missed in the 2010-2012 drafts by the Leafs and playing up to a good level now.

Which more and more people are coming around to as the explanation for this era. The good parts they got were got without a sensible plan to buy the necessary other parts. Analogies to buying an Eames chair for your dorm room, fancy stereo for mom's old Corolla, Tiffany cufflinks for threadbare Value Village castoff present themselves.

I still wouldn't blame the chair, stereo, or cufflinks.

Also, I think still sort of think a bit more careful thought about who to hold and who to cut bait on, a more intelligent rolling of the roster, would've made this a somewhat better team over the last couple of years and made this a less ugly/painful process now. Then again, we wouldn't have Nylander and (hopefully) McDavid/Strome/Marner and whatever third piece we get next year to go along with Rielly.

I think the first step is getting rid of Nonis. Burke bears some responsibility for where we find ourselves but so does Dave. Some examples:

1. When Burke got gassed, Nonis continued top 6/bottom 6 that the majority of the league had moved away from and if the Leafs had done so sooner, I contend (and did while Burke was still around), it would have made them more competitive.

2. Nonis resisted doing anything in analytics until Shanahan gave him little choice. I don't think analytics is the answer to everything but it is key part of the future of assessing and managing talent in this sport. We've been discussing the flaws in NHL stats for nearly 20 years on line

3. Nonis signed a bunch of these contracts - some that are not going to be easy to unload - committing a couple of hundred million to the core of this roster. Someone else, not attached to the management legacy of these contracts, should shed them

4. Burke promised to change the culture of the franchise. Nonis promised to carry on that work. The roster we have today has more talent than they're demonstrating but the worst character as a group I've seen over the last 50 years. I question Nonis' judgement in collecting and committing contracts to this group of characters under the banner of "changing the culture" for the better.

5. Why is Morgan Rielly on this roster? What is the point? All it does is cost the Leafs contractually for the balance of his career because his agent is going to be walking into his next contract negotiation with a bunch of comparables to all the NHL games he's racked up.

Here's how a good NHL GM gets good value in a cap system from their kids:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html
here's a comparable:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008490.html

Case study: examine the price performance of Kronwall's contract history vs say Luke Schenn (not entirely fair/easy because they're not the same quality of player and timing).
But the Wings got Kronwall on his last deal for $3 mil/yr between 2008-2012.
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/player_stats/187-kronwall-niklas
The Leafs paid Luke Schenn between $2.975 and $3.6 mil/yr between 2009 and 2012
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/player_stats/1041-schenn-luke

Who do you think got the better value for their contract dollar?

There is a relationship between when a guy starts playing in the NHL and how much his contract is. Kronwall was a 1st rounder drafted in 2000 and didn't play full time in the NHL until 2006 - so they didn't have to pay him as much (one year delay maybe due to lockout). Schenn was drafted in June 2008 and started with the Leafs the following September.

Next summer (2016) we get to look forward to over paying Morgan Rielly, who could have still been playing on an entry deal if he was brought along more gradually,  because his agent will be pointing out he's played the third or fourth most NHL games out of his draft class. And when Morgan hits 25-26, he'll probably be finally settling in to play well like most good young NHL dman do ... heading for UFA status the following summer - where we'll be paying through the nose to keep him (instead of paying him Kronwall-like dollars for a second deal)- all because the Leafs lacked patience and smarts.

The first off season transaction should be showing Nonis the door. it's a no brainer. You almost can't go wrong on that decision. If they haven't got anyone lined up, hire/appoint someone on an interim basis to start cleaning up the mess.

darn that's depressing. The truth hurts. Good write up though

I agree, depressing.  Excellent writing for sure.
 
cw said:
I think the first step is getting rid of Nonis. Burke bears some responsibility for where we find ourselves but so does Dave. Some examples:

Nik's 'defense' of some of Nonis's past moves -- particularly the ones that I really hated -- was that maybe it was a stealth rebuild plan. I think Burke probably set the table for a team that topped out as a wildcard team. I think everything Nonis did after the Boston series, with the exception of getting Bernier, made them worse than that.

If that's what he's been up to, I guess he's been pretty successful.


cw said:
1. When Burke got gassed, Nonis continued top 6/bottom 6 that the majority of the league had moved away from and if the Leafs had done so sooner, I contend (and did while Burke was still around), it would have made them more competitive.

Yes. They did OK in the lockout season with Bozak-Grabovski and Kadri as a sheltered scoring-line center. Upgrading one of Bozak or Grabo could've been accomplished with Kadri graduating into a bigger role -- which he did, and the ride was expectedly bumpy but not a horrifying mess -- but they never replaced the young, sheltered scoring center. They got Dave Bolland, tossed Colborne away, and acquired -- but didn't really play -- Holland. I don't think that helped.


cw said:
4. Burke promised to change the culture of the franchise. Nonis promised to carry on that work. The roster we have today has more talent than they're demonstrating but the worst character as a group I've seen over the last 50 years. I question Nonis' judgement in collecting and committing contracts to this group of characters under the banner of "changing the culture" for the better.

The implication here is that there's something inherently flawed with the characters of players on the team. I wonder if there is a management/ team-building explanation. Perhaps there's value in leaving players in junior or the minors so they can acquire the experience of being on winning teams for whole seasons before having to learn to do that in the NHL? And I guess this isn't something you can just buy (see Bolland, Dave).


cw said:
5. Why is Morgan Rielly on this roster? What is the point?

Wanted to make the playoffs. But, yeah. Not thinking long term.

 
So if Doug Wilson is available in the off-season, which looks like a distinct possibility, is he a good choice for the Leafs?  He seems to have done a fairly good job in San Jose in drafting and developing players.
 
LuncheonMeat said:
So if Doug Wilson is available in the off-season, which looks like a distinct possibility, is he a good choice for the Leafs?  He seems to have done a fairly good job in San Jose in drafting and developing players.

And then went on to ruin his team largely because of a single playoff loss. Sounds familiar. Pass.
 
LuncheonMeat said:
So if Doug Wilson is available in the off-season, which looks like a distinct possibility, is he a good choice for the Leafs?  He seems to have done a fairly good job in San Jose in drafting and developing players.

I know money talks, however, the Wilson family despises the Toronto Maple Leafs.  I doubt very much that Doug would accept a position with the Leafs.

JMHO.
 
Does anyone know how much of Nonis's work has been at the instruction of those above him?  I can't fault the guy if he was told what to do rather then thinking for himself.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
the Wilson family despises the Toronto Maple Leafs.

What's that based on?

Family acquaintances.

Ahhh the old 'I know a guy, who knows a guy, who bagged groceries for a cousin of a guy, who knew a guy in high school'.

Generally that's a good spot to gather news

It's funny how your opinion about a particular team can change once they offer you a job for more money than anyone else is paying.  Especially after your last employer fired you.
 
moon111 said:
Does anyone know how much of Nonis's work has been at the instruction of those above him?  I can't fault the guy if he was told what to do rather then thinking for himself.

This is where I stand on Nonis. Since Shanahan cut out the other AGMs and brought in Dubas, Pridham, and Hunter, there haven't been any boneheaded trades/acquisitions. Nonis was willing to play ball with the new regime and pool his skills in with everyone else's.

Judging by Carlyle's exit, he was given a chance to play ball as well (coach and develop the youth to play the game the right way), but he stuck with his own way (run n' gun, 3 lines) because it netted (ugly) wins with this lineup.

I don't think canning Nonis does anything useful at this point, and it's too late to punish him for the moves the Board asked him to make before. He has more value with his cachet around the league and his years of experience at this level  to implement the new management's decisions (developing the others).
 
LuncheonMeat said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
the Wilson family despises the Toronto Maple Leafs.

What's that based on?

Family acquaintances.

Ahhh the old 'I know a guy, who knows a guy, who bagged groceries for a cousin of a guy, who knew a guy in high school'.

Generally that's a good spot to gather news

It's funny how your opinion about a particular team can change once they offer you a job for more money than anyone else is paying.  Especially after your last employer fired you.

Especially when you never really held an opinion of an organization despite what Timmy at the Loblaw's says.
 
LuncheonMeat said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
the Wilson family despises the Toronto Maple Leafs.

What's that based on?

Family acquaintances.

Ahhh the old 'I know a guy, who knows a guy, who bagged groceries for a cousin of a guy, who knew a guy in high school'.

Generally that's a good spot to gather news

It's funny how your opinion about a particular team can change once they offer you a job for more money than anyone else is paying.  Especially after your last employer fired you.

I was going to bring up that point. He was a coach that never won anything even with some really good teams.  The gave him a huge contract and didn't fire him after seasons of disappoinment until the crowds basically forced burkes hand.  Wilson has nothing to complain about how the leafs treated him.
 
Interesting things in the works in Tankville tonight!  A pair of Carolina teams have moved 2 points up on the Leafs, pulling a terrible Arizona team along in their wake.  With Edmonton being relegated to the ECHL, Toronto is now sitting in the 29 spot with a pretty good chance of drafting Eichel.

In other news, riots in the streets of Toronto continue after Carolina was awarded a second NHL team.

dgiihs.jpg
 
Jolly good show chaps said:
Is it too late for Edmonton to catch us? Starting to look like Arizona will be the second or possibly even worst team.

7 points to be made up with Edmonton having 10 games left.  Edmonton is 2-8-0 in their last 10.  Not going to happen.  Edmonton has three more games against non-playoff teams and the rest are against teams either fighting for their playoff lives or at least playoff positioning.
 
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