Tank Nation UNITE!!!

[herman]

I don't share the view that tanking is the answer and history doesn't show any guarantees. While some teams with top picks, Chicago, Pittsburgh have won Stanley Cups with because of high picks, others teams that have accumulated them -- Edmonton, Washington, Ottawa previously -- haven't been able to parlay them in Stanley Cups.
Other teams, such as, LA, St.Louis, Anaheim, have had maybe one top five pick and a host of late first and even later picks that form their core.
On Anaheim, Getzlaf was 19th, Perry 28th, Kesler, 23rd, Fowler, 12th.
St.Louis, apart from Pietangelo at 4th, Tarasenko 16th, Oshie and Steen both 16th, Stastny 44, and Backus 62.
The Bruins, Habs, Red Wings and other top teams rosters, show a similar story.
The Leafs actually have three top 5 picks in their line-up in JVR, 2nd, Kessel and Rielly both 5th.

I personally don't think the Leafs have to blow it up entirely. I think they can retool by unloading Phaneuf and finding another solid d-man or two, like the Islander did with Boychuk and Leddy.

Land a new centre - like a Ryan O'Reilly. We need a upgrade down the middle. O'Rielly, Kadri, Bozak, fourth line big grinder centre would make more sense.

I would not trade Kessel unless it was an equal value offer, player for player. They Leafs need a head honcho forward that can take the spotlight away from Kessel, and he can just do his 35-40 goal thing. I actually remember during the strike shortened season and early last year, he was doing some back checking the media guys were starting to praise him for trying to play more of a two-way game. They have short term memories. Anyway, I just think he's gotten a bit fed up. Still, that is not an excuse. But I mean, when he sees the way Dion is playing some night - guys just walking around him - I am sure it doesn't just drive the fans crazy.

I would trade Reimer to eliminate that whole issue, and find veteran back-up who doesn't mind the role. Or audition the three Marlie goalies, Gibson, Sparks or Bibeau (may not want to rush the kid) to see if one of them can fill the role. 

Anyway, blowing the whole thing up in desperation, will likely result in another decade of futility at least.

They simply need to draft better, trade better, develop their kids better and not blow their brains out on overpaid contracts.

Good analysis. My sense of the situation is that management feels similarly.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

They will... at the beginning of next season.  Right before they crush everyone's hopes like so many aluminum cans.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

I agree, but, with the team already reportedly looking into moving him, a strong stretch without him could embolden them in that pursuit. That being said, if Phaneuf is moved, it won't be directly related to how they play without him.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

I agree, but, with the team already reportedly looking into moving him, a strong stretch without him could embolden them in that pursuit. That being said, if Phaneuf is moved, it won't be directly related to how they play without him.

That's what I'm saying.  Either they already wanted to move him or they didn't already want to move him, but playing well without him won't make them consider it where they didn't already.

 

[Kin]

I don't share the view that tanking is the answer and history doesn't show any guarantees. While some teams with top picks, Chicago, Pittsburgh have won Stanley Cups with because of high picks, others teams that have accumulated them -- Edmonton, Washington, Ottawa previously -- haven't been able to parlay them in Stanley Cups.

That's like saying that going to college doesn't matter because you can go to college, get your degree and still end up unemployed. Nobody has ever said that tanking guarantees anything or that it will achieve good results independent of having a good management team in place making good decisions. Just that it's the best and most direct way to accumulate the sort of talent you need to build a winner. Your plan for the Leafs boils down to basically that they don't need to rebuild because they can just "find" a #1 centre and top defensemen like those are things that other teams are eager to give away.

"Just do things better" isn't actually a strategy.

Other teams, such as, LA, St.Louis, Anaheim, have had maybe one top five pick and a host of late first and even later picks that form their core.
On Anaheim, Getzlaf was 19th, Perry 28th, Kesler, 23rd, Fowler, 12th.
St.Louis, apart from Pietangelo at 4th, Tarasenko 16th, Oshie and Steen both 16th, Stastny 44, and Backus 62.

Of the ten players you name here, four were drafted in 2003 which is hands down the best draft year in the history of the NHL. Using picks from those years as "evidence" that Franchise players can be found up and down the draft is essentially advocating for the Leafs to sit around and hope that lightning strikes.

Players picked in the top 5 of a draft are not the equal of each other simply by virtue of draft position. Rielly was taken 5th in what looks to be an incredibly weak draft year. The Kings have Drew Doughty, taken second in an incredibly strong draft year. Are they a wash? Is the Leafs hoping to build around JVR a wash with the Islanders building around Tavares because they were both top 5 picks?

For years people said that the Leafs should build their team the way that the Red Wings did in the 90's but  Communism was never going to fall a second time. At some point you actually have to try to deal with how talent is actually distributed in a repeatable way.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

Yeah maybe I didn't word that correctly. Nonis and co. have already, reportedly, had discussions about moving him, so it's not as if the team playing well without him will be the deciding factor of him getting moved. I do think, however, that if there's any doubts about his value to the team (especially in a cap era) and the team looks strong enough without him, that could make a decision easier for the management.

Phaneuf is a far, far cry from Sundin in terms of value. Any team knows it'll be better with a hall of famer so I'm not sure that really applies.

Phaneuf is a #2-#3 D-man being paid #1 money. Maybe they've already decided he doesn't fit the long term structure and are awaiting his return from injury to make a deal. Maybe not. This injury gives them a glimpse of what the team looks like without Phaneuf. I think that is an opportunity to gauge his value to the team (they're not great with him in the lineup as it is, and yes I know it's not all his fault).

 

[bustaheims]

3-14-1.

 

[mc]

The slide continues..albeit with one point tonight. Top five pick here we come!

 

[Madferret]

What's the consensus around here on Nonis keeping his job after the season ends?

 

[ZBBM]

What's the consensus around here on Nonis keeping his job after the season ends?

The consensus is why wait.

 

[bustaheims]

What's the consensus around here on Nonis keeping his job after the season ends?

Unlikely. I don't think he's really doing his job now. He's doing what Shanny and Co. are telling him to now.

 

[Madferret]

The task(s) Shanahan is going to be charged with if the Leafs decide to ok a complete teardown / blowup / rebuild are almost impossible. But if it's done at least 60% properly this time in about 5-7 years you guys are going to be much more fun to talk hockey / chirp with.

 

[Madferret]

I think a full rebuild would pretty much take Babcock's name out of any coaching equation in Toronto so there's my next question: who is the best gaffer for a 100% no doubt about it rebuild? Eakins maybe?

 

[Kin]

I think a full rebuild would pretty much take Babcock's name out of any coaching equation in Toronto...

Never underestimate the willingness of someone to take on a lousy job if they're offered way more money than they're worth. See Ryan, Bobby.

 

[ZBBM]

The task(s) Shanahan is going to be charged with if the Leafs decide to ok a complete teardown / blowup / rebuild are almost impossible. But if it's done at least 60% properly this time in about 5-7 years you guys are going to be much more fun to talk hockey / chirp with.

Yeah, I have to admit this place isn't nearly as fun these past few years as it once was.  Everyone's in a bad mood all the time because any one of us could have done at least as good a job running the team as the bozos who actually get paid to.

 

[wnc096]

Yeah, I have to admit this place isn't nearly as fun these past few years as it once was.  Everyone's in a bad mood all the time because any one of us could have done at least as good a job running the team as the bozos who actually get paid to.

No kidding hey?  Even when they were rolling last month...you could tell everyone was not buying it...no crazy blue and white koolaid like years past.  I remember after every win in previous years, everyone would talk about how the team was on the verge of contending.  This year even after they won like 6 in a row everone was waiting for the other shoe To drop.....and it inevetibly did.  The fanbase it completely jaded (with good reason)

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Watching some highlights, and maybe LK can chime in, Marner really gives off a 'Claude Giroux' vibe.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Watching some highlights, and maybe LK can chime in, Marner really gives off a 'Claude Giroux' vibe.

You mean great player on a defensively terrible team?

Joking of course. That sounds good. I'm not going going to get too excited about picks until our draft position is a little more defined.

A loss tonight would go a big way to helping that.