The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[bustaheims]

Yeah but your argument presupposes that the PK will remain 100% for the reminder of the season. Something that will not happen.

Not really, no, just that they'll be able to maintain a similar winning % with their current level of discipline, which is entirely possible.

 

[lc9]

You're right, the last 3 seasons the team has not improved at all in the standings.

So?  The Leafs haven't made the playoffs and look equally as lost as the past seasons.  The leafs have more talent than 3 years ago, so I expect they would move up organically.

Wilson hasn't made this team one bit better from the time he arrived.  Burke has acquired better talent, but still doesn't see results. 

Burke shares the responsibility of this disorganized hockey team, he refuses to acquire a leader and he refuses to fire Wilson.  Because of this we will most likely miss the playoffs once again and Wilson will finally be fired.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

You're right, the last 3 seasons the team has not improved at all in the standings.

So?  The Leafs haven't made the playoffs and look equally as lost as the past seasons.  The leafs have more talent than 3 years ago, so I expect they would move up organically.

Wilson hasn't made this team one bit better from the time he arrived.  Burke has acquired better talent, but still doesn't see results. 

Burke shares the responsibility of this disorganized hockey team, he refuses to acquire a leader and he refuses to fire Wilson.  Because of this we will most likely miss the playoffs once again and Wilson will finally be fired.

Hey man, how's it going?  I'm real sorry bout that last post of mine, well gee, I didn't mean to set ya off on that lil' spell there.

I am also sorry that the team has only grown organically and not in some bionic form, but hey with the whole going green movement we can all take solace in the organic nature of this team.  Veg out on that.

It's 4:15 AM and that's all the sarcasm left in the tank.  I look forward to your letters.

 

[lamajama]

You're right, the last 3 seasons the team has not improved at all in the standings.

So?  The Leafs haven't made the playoffs and look equally as lost as the past seasons.  The leafs have more talent than 3 years ago, so I expect they would move up organically.

Wilson hasn't made this team one bit better from the time he arrived.  Burke has acquired better talent, but still doesn't see results. 

Burke shares the responsibility of this disorganized hockey team, he refuses to acquire a leader and he refuses to fire Wilson.  Because of this we will most likely miss the playoffs once again and Wilson will finally be fired.

In Burke's eyes he has - Dion. Not saying this is correct or not but that's what they think. I and all, have no idea why they pooped the bed Saturday night. Big big lost opportunity to bury the Habs.

 

[lc9]

You're right, the last 3 seasons the team has not improved at all in the standings.

So?  The Leafs haven't made the playoffs and look equally as lost as the past seasons.  The leafs have more talent than 3 years ago, so I expect they would move up organically.

Wilson hasn't made this team one bit better from the time he arrived.  Burke has acquired better talent, but still doesn't see results. 

Burke shares the responsibility of this disorganized hockey team, he refuses to acquire a leader and he refuses to fire Wilson.  Because of this we will most likely miss the playoffs once again and Wilson will finally be fired.

Hey man, how's it going?  I'm real sorry bout that last post of mine, well gee, I didn't mean to set ya off on that lil' spell there.

I am also sorry that the team has only grown organically and not in some bionic form, but hey with the whole going green movement we can all take solace in the organic nature of this team.  Veg out on that.

It's 4:15 AM and that's all the sarcasm left in the tank.  I look forward to your letters.

Sorry man, just seemed to me like you were defending Wilson on the premise of the Leafs moving from 14th in the standings to between 8-10.

 

[lc9]

In Burke's eyes he has - Dion. Not saying this is correct or not but that's what they think. I and all, have no idea why they pooped the bed Saturday night. Big big lost opportunity to bury the Habs.

That is a good point.  Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited. 

I am just a frustrated fan right now.  Every game the Leafs lose you hear something for the sort from Wilson, 'They took away our speed and played a right game,' yet he never offers an alternative to winning without speed.  Even if we make the playoffs, every team will look to slow the game down.

Wake up Ron.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Every game the Leafs lose you hear something for the sort from Wilson, 'They took away our speed and played a right game,' yet he never offers an alternative to winning without speed.  Even if we make the playoffs, every team will look to slow the game down.

This is the biggest concern for me right now, when we have faced talented teams who employ this tactic we are pretty much dead in the water, the inability or refusal to change tactics when this happens is extremely disheartening.

 

[AvroArrow]

Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited.

I don't really understand how people can bash Dion's leadership.  Not a single person here actually know's how he leads.  Nobody here see's him in the dressing room, or hears him on the ice or on the bench all the time.

I'm not trying to say he's the best and we're golden to have him, but it's virtually impossible to know whether he's a good or bad leader from our standpoint, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to say one way or the other with unwavering certainty.

(sorry to pick on you lc9 - nothing personal by any means)

 

[maplesyrup]

Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited.

I don't really understand how people can bash Dion's leadership.  Not a single person here actually know's how he leads.  Nobody here see's him in the dressing room, or hears him on the ice or on the bench all the time.

I'm not trying to say he's the best and we're golden to have him, but it's virtually impossible to know whether he's a good or bad leader from our standpoint, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to say one way or the other with unwavering certainty.

(sorry to pick on you lc9 - nothing personal by any means)

Well said Avro.

 

[Stebro]

I really like Dion, and he's a pretty good player, but imo he's quite clumsy at times. I only watched the first period vs Montreal, and it was one of those typical mistakes he makes at times...he went for the puck even if he wasn't sure if he could get it, instead the player from Montreal passed him quite easily 'cause he missed the entire situation. And I mean a captain should be a bit more sure of what they're doing imo. Do we have a better option on the team? Not really. It would be nice to have a Gary Roberts or something.

As for Wilson, it seems as if he's just talking. And what bothers me is that there seems to be a lot of similar problems over and over and he can't solve them all that well. I would want a Tortorella-type of coach.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited.

I don't really understand how people can bash Dion's leadership.  Not a single person here actually know's how he leads.  Nobody here see's him in the dressing room, or hears him on the ice or on the bench all the time.

I'm not trying to say he's the best and we're golden to have him, but it's virtually impossible to know whether he's a good or bad leader from our standpoint, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to say one way or the other with unwavering certainty.

(sorry to pick on you lc9 - nothing personal by any means)

There's a certain kind of irony in criticizing Phanuef's captaincy when Sundin's banner was raised. We all love Sundin but how many people complained about him being the captain?

That actually might not be ironic at all. I'm still not quite sure what irony is.

 

[Bender]

Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited.

I don't really understand how people can bash Dion's leadership.  Not a single person here actually know's how he leads.  Nobody here see's him in the dressing room, or hears him on the ice or on the bench all the time.

I'm not trying to say he's the best and we're golden to have him, but it's virtually impossible to know whether he's a good or bad leader from our standpoint, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to say one way or the other with unwavering certainty.

(sorry to pick on you lc9 - nothing personal by any means)

There's a certain kind of irony in criticizing Phanuef's captaincy when Sundin's banner was raised. We all love Sundin but how many people complained about him being the captain?

That actually might not be ironic at all. I'm still not quite sure what irony is.

We're never satisfied. It makes sense, we haven't won the Cup in forever, but no captain would be good enough based on our current record. I think our record often dictates how we view our captain. And then Sundin didn't win a Cup with us, so it was clear he wasn't a good captain either.

 

[Andy007]

Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited.

I don't really understand how people can bash Dion's leadership.  Not a single person here actually know's how he leads.  Nobody here see's him in the dressing room, or hears him on the ice or on the bench all the time.

I'm not trying to say he's the best and we're golden to have him, but it's virtually impossible to know whether he's a good or bad leader from our standpoint, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to say one way or the other with unwavering certainty.

(sorry to pick on you lc9 - nothing personal by any means)

There's a certain kind of irony in criticizing Phanuef's captaincy when Sundin's banner was raised. We all love Sundin but how many people complained about him being the captain?

That actually might not be ironic at all. I'm still not quite sure what irony is.

We're never satisfied. It makes sense, we haven't won the Cup in forever, but no captain would be good enough based on our current record. I think our record often dictates how we view our captain. And then Sundin didn't win a Cup with us, so it was clear he wasn't a good captain either.

Gilmour didn't win a Cup either and his captaincy was never put into question. Heck he even demanded out after his minutes were in jeopardy.  And what was Toronto's record with Clark in the lineup?

So yea I'm not really sure how much stock is put into the team's record in relation to who is the captain. It seems to be alot more subjective than that.

 

[Strangelove]

Burke has convinced himself that Dion is the leader of the present and future, but he is so obviously ill-suited.

I don't really understand how people can bash Dion's leadership.  Not a single person here actually know's how he leads.  Nobody here see's him in the dressing room, or hears him on the ice or on the bench all the time.

I'm not trying to say he's the best and we're golden to have him, but it's virtually impossible to know whether he's a good or bad leader from our standpoint, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to say one way or the other with unwavering certainty.

(sorry to pick on you lc9 - nothing personal by any means)

There's a certain kind of irony in criticizing Phanuef's captaincy when Sundin's banner was raised. We all love Sundin but how many people complained about him being the captain?

That actually might not be ironic at all. I'm still not quite sure what irony is.

We're never satisfied. It makes sense, we haven't won the Cup in forever, but no captain would be good enough based on our current record. I think our record often dictates how we view our captain. And then Sundin didn't win a Cup with us, so it was clear he wasn't a good captain either.

I don't think that's true at all.  I think most if not all of us thought Sundin was a great captain, and the reason we did (and likewise the reason many are unsatisfied with Dion) comes into view if we look at the differences between Sundin's captaincy and Phaneuf's.

A good chunk of this difference (in my mind) turns on Sundin's consistency and Dion's lack thereof.  Phaneuf can go from being our best defenseman one game to our worst the next, and he seems to make as many dumb decisions as good ones.  Mats was supremely consistent game after game, to the point where players (too) often expected him to carry the team on their shoulders.  Dion has the skill to be that kind of player, but far too seldom plays to his ability.  When you couple that with his fairly apparent lack of intelligence, you're left with a guy who doesn't seem to be able to inspire the team, and a captain, therefore, who's failing to do his job.

 

[Tigger]

I'm not overly sold on Dion as a great Captain but I don't think there were any serious alternatives frankly, if one has to say who of those available should be named.

If we're going to get on him in a comparison with Sundin let's just get something straight, not very many people are capable of doing what he did in Toronto, period, never mind who's on the Leafs currently and that Dion is only just halfway into his second season in that department. Hard to argue consistency at this point to me, Dion is just now figuring out the fullness of his position and Sundin was Captain for 10 plus more seasons, a tenure that began with Gilmour, the Captain, being dealt in the middle of a lot of team turmoil, lack of success and there were just as many if not more questions asked about the decision at the time.

I mean that was the year Larry Murphy got booed to a Stanley Cup.

The Leafs missed the playoffs two straight years after Mats was named Captain but then got to the conference finals and lost to Buffalo in his third year. Seems like that's more of a parallel to me than anything else.

The Leafs went on to six straight post seasons...

Mats also had some pretty good lieutenants in the dressing room over the years as well, something that can't quite be said in Dion's favour currently.

Again, patience.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

You're right, the last 3 seasons the team has not improved at all in the standings.

So?  The Leafs haven't made the playoffs and look equally as lost as the past seasons.  The leafs have more talent than 3 years ago, so I expect they would move up organically.

Wilson hasn't made this team one bit better from the time he arrived.  Burke has acquired better talent, but still doesn't see results. 

Burke shares the responsibility of this disorganized hockey team, he refuses to acquire a leader and he refuses to fire Wilson.  Because of this we will most likely miss the playoffs once again and Wilson will finally be fired.

Hey man, how's it going?  I'm real sorry bout that last post of mine, well gee, I didn't mean to set ya off on that lil' spell there.

I am also sorry that the team has only grown organically and not in some bionic form, but hey with the whole going green movement we can all take solace in the organic nature of this team.  Veg out on that.

It's 4:15 AM and that's all the sarcasm left in the tank.  I look forward to your letters.

Sorry man, just seemed to me like you were defending Wilson on the premise of the Leafs moving from 14th in the standings to between 8-10.

The post you quoted of mine was responding to another poster who claimed that the Leafs had not improved much while holding up Edmonton as a team that has improved in comparison.  I was pointing out that, over the last 3 years we have improved - obviously it is arguable who gets the credit for that and who doesn't, and to what degree, but the team's fortunes have improved.

 

[lc9]

The post you quoted of mine was responding to another poster who claimed that the Leafs had not improved much while holding up Edmonton as a team that has improved in comparison.  I was pointing out that, over the last 3 years we have improved - obviously it is arguable who gets the credit for that and who doesn't, and to what degree, but the team's fortunes have improved.

I guess you and I view improvement differently.  Sure, were not last, but we are hanging by a thread in 8th place, and would likely get run over in the playoffs.  I won't argue anything about Edmonton, that's not my beef.  My argument is that that Burke has acquired better players, and this roster is better than when Ron Wilson took over.  I don't think Ron Wilson has done anything to improve this team, I think the team has improved, but only due to an increase in talent.  I also believe Wilson has regressed as a coach with the Leafs, ie the team has improved at a stagnated pace due to Wilson's lack of system structure.

 

[groundskeeper willie]

The post you quoted of mine was responding to another poster who claimed that the Leafs had not improved much while holding up Edmonton as a team that has improved in comparison.  I was pointing out that, over the last 3 years we have improved - obviously it is arguable who gets the credit for that and who doesn't, and to what degree, but the team's fortunes have improved.

I guess you and I view improvement differently.  Sure, were not last, but we are hanging by a thread in 8th place, and would likely get run over in the playoffs.  I won't argue anything about Edmonton, that's not my beef.  My argument is that that Burke has acquired better players, and this roster is better than when Ron Wilson took over.  I don't think Ron Wilson has done anything to improve this team, I think the team has improved, but only due to an increase in talent.  I also believe Wilson has regressed as a coach with the Leafs, ie the team has improved at a stagnated pace due to Wilson's lack of system structure.

What, specifically, would you like to see the coach do different? Because the most common complaints were about the specialty teams and discipline, and guess what? The powerplay and penalty kill are both vastly improved and the team hasn't taken a bad penalty in how long now?

I'm not saying Wilson deserves a long term extension, but come on, the problems people had were resolved but the complaints aren't stopping. Would it be nice to see a bit more consistent effort? Sure, but young teams always have trouble with that, and even the very best teams in the league have stretches of poor play.

 

[lc9]

What, specifically, would you like to see the coach do different? Because the most common complaints were about the specialty teams and discipline, and guess what? The powerplay and penalty kill are both vastly improved and the team hasn't taken a bad penalty in how long now?

I'm not saying Wilson deserves a long term extension, but come on, the problems people had were resolved but the complaints aren't stopping. Would it be nice to see a bit more consistent effort? Sure, but young teams always have trouble with that, and even the very best teams in the league have stretches of poor play.

My complaints go much deeper than special teams.  Our fore-check is awful, rarely do they cycle the puck with the intent of setting up the man in the middle (the wings do this all the time, pass from behind the net in the slot).  The leafs rely on one aspect...speed through the neutral zone.  When that is nullified the Leafs don't change up their break out or how they attack the zone. 

Play the half-boards...The leafs, at all cost, try to force the puck through the middle of the ice, even in the attacking zone, and this causes a lot of giveaways that lead to odd-man rushes.

D-pinching: Wilson's system also relies on the D being involved with getting the puck up to the forwards quickly, and also joining the rush.  Well, imo, the Leafs D don't know when to pinch or join the rush.  This indecision causes bad pinches and sloppy passes through the neutral zone.

The PK was awful, and it has improved, but still, there is a lot more to running a hockey team than PP and PK.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

What, specifically, would you like to see the coach do different? Because the most common complaints were about the specialty teams and discipline, and guess what? The powerplay and penalty kill are both vastly improved and the team hasn't taken a bad penalty in how long now?

I'm not saying Wilson deserves a long term extension, but come on, the problems people had were resolved but the complaints aren't stopping. Would it be nice to see a bit more consistent effort? Sure, but young teams always have trouble with that, and even the very best teams in the league have stretches of poor play.

My complaints go much deeper than special teams.  Our fore-check is awful, rarely do they cycle the puck with the intent of setting up the man in the middle (the wings do this all the time, pass from behind the net in the slot).  The leafs rely on one aspect...speed through the neutral zone.  When that is nullified the Leafs don't change up their break out or how they attack the zone. 

Play the half-boards...The leafs, at all cost, try to force the puck through the middle of the ice, even in the attacking zone, and this causes a lot of giveaways that lead to odd-man rushes.

D-pinching: Wilson's system also relies on the D being involved with getting the puck up to the forwards quickly, and also joining the rush.  Well, imo, the Leafs D don't know when to pinch or join the rush.  This indecision causes bad pinches and sloppy passes through the neutral zone.

The PK was awful, and it has improved, but still, there is a lot more to running a hockey team than PP and PK.

The Leafs do forecheck, and I really don't notice d-men pinching a lot.  I see it a few times, but it is nothing to worry about.  The two problems that have plagued the team the entire season is their inability to get out of their zone with the puck.  They have weak shots, errant passes, turnovers and cannot handle a forecheck.  Instead of being calm, the players run around like they lost their heads.  The second problem is they are not physical enough and play soft man to man coverage that allows the other team to set up and cycle the puck around.  This forces Leaf players to run around trying to cover the other player, and that wears out the Leaf players.  All that results in decent scoring chances for the other team.