Tlusty re-ups in Carolina

[TML fan]

He's playing over his head. He's not that good. He's good enough to be a contributing player in the right environment, and Toronto was not that environment. Not losing sleep over this one.

Aside from the "he's not one of use anymore so he's not that good" fan arguments, I really don't understand that assertion (and I'm not singling you out, I'm just speaking in general about this general sentiment that a lot of people seem to have).

He was a guy who was soft as an 18 year old playing on a team that still had some pretty good players on it and still had a few guys who were pretty physical in the top 6.  He's a mid-high 1st round pick and he's 24 going on 25.  He's developed fairly slow, but his development with the Leafs was just pathetic in the way they handled him.  Playing him 4-5 minutes a night on the 4th line was pure incompetence.

Just because he's doing well in Carolina doesn't mean he'd be the same player if he had continued his development here. Considering how many players have come here and been useless or been here and gone on to better things, I'd think the notion that any player is not always going to be the same wherever he plays would be seared into your brain. Sorry if that sounded rude but I think the assertion I was making is pretty clear cut. Environment plays a huge role in the development of anything, let alone a hockey player. Perhaps Carolina was a better environment for him than Toronto? Maybe there was a reason he was playing 4-5 minutes a night that had everything to do with Tlusty and nothing to do with perceived managerial incompetence. Perhaps the reason the Leafs only got Paradis is because his trade value was so low that's the only thing they could have gotten, and rather than waste an asset they believed wasn't going to develop in THEIR system, they took whatever they could get, and gave him a chance to pursue his career somewhere else?

Who knows? Maybe the Leafs actually saved his career by moving him?

 

[L K]

He's playing over his head. He's not that good. He's good enough to be a contributing player in the right environment, and Toronto was not that environment. Not losing sleep over this one.

Aside from the "he's not one of use anymore so he's not that good" fan arguments, I really don't understand that assertion (and I'm not singling you out, I'm just speaking in general about this general sentiment that a lot of people seem to have).

He was a guy who was soft as an 18 year old playing on a team that still had some pretty good players on it and still had a few guys who were pretty physical in the top 6.  He's a mid-high 1st round pick and he's 24 going on 25.  He's developed fairly slow, but his development with the Leafs was just pathetic in the way they handled him.  Playing him 4-5 minutes a night on the 4th line was pure incompetence.

Just because he's doing well in Carolina doesn't mean he'd be the same player if he had continued his development here. Considering how many players have come here and been useless or been here and gone on to better things, I'd think the notion that any player is not always going to be the same wherever he plays would be seared into your brain. Sorry if that sounded rude but I think the assertion I was making is pretty clear cut. Environment plays a huge role in the development of anything, let alone a hockey player. Perhaps Carolina was a better environment for him than Toronto? Maybe there was a reason he was playing 4-5 minutes a night that had everything to do with Tlusty and nothing to do with perceived managerial incompetence. Perhaps the reason the Leafs only got Paradis is because his trade value was so low that's the only thing they could have gotten, and rather than waste an asset they believed wasn't going to develop in THEIR system, they took whatever they could get, and gave him a chance to pursue his career somewhere else?

Who knows? Maybe the Leafs actually saved his career by moving him?

Sure, there is no guarantee that he would have developed into the player that he currently is for Carolina.  But that doesn't automatically mean that he would have failed in Toronto which seems to be the general sentiment in Tlusty discussions.

And as for the 4-5 minutes a night stuff.  It has everything to do with managerial incompetence because he should have been in the minors getting 18-20 minutes a game and working on his offensive game against guys who he could handle better.  He came to North America early (usually a good sign from higher draft pick Europeans) and then got hurt in the OHL so he lost half a development year.  Then he had a decent, if not unspectacular rookie season while being a PPG player in the AHL.  He should have played that entire season in the AHL his first pro year, and then probably a second stretch in the AHL the next year.  Instead he was shunted around on the 3rd/4th line without getting development minutes.  It was poor management from that standpoint, not because they didn't force feed him NHL minutes.  He just shouldn't have been playing in that kind of role. It didn't suit his skillset to be playing with Tie Domi and Wade Belak.  It was just a horrible situation for a young offensively oriented forward who had the makings of being a decent two-way player.

 

[TML fan]

He's playing over his head. He's not that good. He's good enough to be a contributing player in the right environment, and Toronto was not that environment. Not losing sleep over this one.

Aside from the "he's not one of use anymore so he's not that good" fan arguments, I really don't understand that assertion (and I'm not singling you out, I'm just speaking in general about this general sentiment that a lot of people seem to have).

He was a guy who was soft as an 18 year old playing on a team that still had some pretty good players on it and still had a few guys who were pretty physical in the top 6.  He's a mid-high 1st round pick and he's 24 going on 25.  He's developed fairly slow, but his development with the Leafs was just pathetic in the way they handled him.  Playing him 4-5 minutes a night on the 4th line was pure incompetence.

Just because he's doing well in Carolina doesn't mean he'd be the same player if he had continued his development here. Considering how many players have come here and been useless or been here and gone on to better things, I'd think the notion that any player is not always going to be the same wherever he plays would be seared into your brain. Sorry if that sounded rude but I think the assertion I was making is pretty clear cut. Environment plays a huge role in the development of anything, let alone a hockey player. Perhaps Carolina was a better environment for him than Toronto? Maybe there was a reason he was playing 4-5 minutes a night that had everything to do with Tlusty and nothing to do with perceived managerial incompetence. Perhaps the reason the Leafs only got Paradis is because his trade value was so low that's the only thing they could have gotten, and rather than waste an asset they believed wasn't going to develop in THEIR system, they took whatever they could get, and gave him a chance to pursue his career somewhere else?

Who knows? Maybe the Leafs actually saved his career by moving him?

Sure, there is no guarantee that he would have developed into the player that he currently is for Carolina.  But that doesn't automatically mean that he would have failed in Toronto which seems to be the general sentiment in Tlusty discussions.

And as for the 4-5 minutes a night stuff.  It has everything to do with managerial incompetence because he should have been in the minors getting 18-20 minutes a game and working on his offensive game against guys who he could handle better.  He came to North America early (usually a good sign from higher draft pick Europeans) and then got hurt in the OHL so he lost half a development year.  Then he had a decent, if not unspectacular rookie season while being a PPG player in the AHL.  He should have played that entire season in the AHL his first pro year, and then probably a second stretch in the AHL the next year.  Instead he was shunted around on the 3rd/4th line without getting development minutes.  It was poor management from that standpoint, not because they didn't force feed him NHL minutes.  He just shouldn't have been playing in that kind of role. It didn't suit his skillset to be playing with Tie Domi and Wade Belak.  It was just a horrible situation for a young offensively oriented forward who had the makings of being a decent two-way player.

There's no guarantee that playing "development minutes" in the AHL would have led to NHL success in Toronto either.

Regardless of any of that, I believe Tlusty is more Clarke MacArthur than Phil Kessel. That's what I meant by "he's not that good". I think we are talking about a player that given the right situation (which he found himself in with Carolina) he could put up several solid yet unspectacular seasons. He's not a special player. Good for him for having a good season and good for him for salvaging his career.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

But it's important for teams to have homegrown "solid but unspectacular" players, even if they're not stars they are taking up important depth minutes and likely doing so cheaper than if you have to get someone as a FA.

No there's no guarantee he would have done this in Toronto, but I think when you're faced with a player who has succeeded elsewhere at a young age, I think it is a far greater leap in logic to think he wouldn't have done that here than it is to think he would have.  He hadn't even played a full season's worth of games for the Leafs, and had put up excellent AHL numbers.  Don't understand why he had to be shipped out at age 20-21.

 

[TML fan]

But it's important for teams to have homegrown "solid but unspectacular" players, even if they're not stars they are taking up important depth minutes and likely doing so cheaper than if you have to get someone as a FA.

No there's no guarantee he would have done this in Toronto, but I think when you're faced with a player who has succeeded elsewhere at a young age, I think it is a far greater leap in logic to think he wouldn't have done that here than it is to think he would have.  He hadn't even played a full season's worth of games for the Leafs, and had put up excellent AHL numbers.  Don't understand why he had to be shipped out at age 20-21.

I don't see the importance in that. The Leafs got two solid years out of Clarke MacArthur before he cashed in, and he wasnt homegrown. If we are to believe that Tlusty is on a similar career path, the Leafs would be looking at shelling out similar compensation for Tlusty in roughly the same amount of time. And this seems kind of contrary to LKs argument in that Tlusty WAS playing depth minutes for Toronto and he attributes that to his lack of success here.

I don't agree with your assessment of logic here for the reasons I stated above. We've seen time and again players who do well elsewhere and come here only to flounder, or players who floundered here and did well elsewhere. I like to call this the Erik Cole effect. There is more than enough evidence to support that theory. I think either is an acceptable leap of logic.

At the end of the day, we don't know the real reason he was shipped out. Perhaps there was an element of his character that was lacking, or perhaps a sense of entitlement, and it was only as he grew and became more mature as a player that he was able to accept his role and find some confidence? Perhaps he is simply playing with better players in Carolina and benefitting from that? Who knows? Ultimately, I don't think the Leafs missed the boat with this guy.

 

[maplesyrup]

Ultimately, I don't think the Leafs missed the boat with this guy.

No. We did. All I'm saying is that it really doesn't matter much.

 

[Bender]

But it's important for teams to have homegrown "solid but unspectacular" players, even if they're not stars they are taking up important depth minutes and likely doing so cheaper than if you have to get someone as a FA.

No there's no guarantee he would have done this in Toronto, but I think when you're faced with a player who has succeeded elsewhere at a young age, I think it is a far greater leap in logic to think he wouldn't have done that here than it is to think he would have.  He hadn't even played a full season's worth of games for the Leafs, and had put up excellent AHL numbers.  Don't understand why he had to be shipped out at age 20-21.

I don't see the importance in that. The Leafs got two solid years out of Clarke MacArthur before he cashed in, and he wasnt homegrown. If we are to believe that Tlusty is on a similar career path, the Leafs would be looking at shelling out similar compensation for Tlusty in roughly the same amount of time. And this seems kind of contrary to LKs argument in that Tlusty WAS playing depth minutes for Toronto and he attributes that to his lack of success here.

I don't agree with your assessment of logic here for the reasons I stated above. We've seen time and again players who do well elsewhere and come here only to flounder, or players who floundered here and did well elsewhere. I like to call this the Erik Cole effect. There is more than enough evidence to support that theory. I think either is an acceptable leap of logic.

At the end of the day, we don't know the real reason he was shipped out. Perhaps there was an element of his character that was lacking, or perhaps a sense of entitlement, and it was only as he grew and became more mature as a player that he was able to accept his role and find some confidence? Perhaps he is simply playing with better players in Carolina and benefitting from that? Who knows? Ultimately, I don't think the Leafs missed the boat with this guy.

Or maybe it was the fact that he was caught with his pants down.

 

[Kin]

There's no guarantee that playing "development minutes" in the AHL would have led to NHL success in Toronto either.

2 things:

1. Taking that position isn't problematic because it's untrue, it's problematic because it essentially reduces every single conversation about a hockey player to the uncertainty of the universe. Did the Leafs make the wrong choice between Rask and Pogge? Did the Flyers between Lindros and Forsberg? The Senators with Daigle over Pronger? Each and every one of those is also inherently unknowable in any tangible sense. I'd think that any desire to discuss sports beyond a level of the cut and dried of what physically happens would require someone to make certain allowances for talent as a constant.

2. Regardless of guarantees, there are things that have better odds of success than others. The way the Leafs tried to develop Tlusty is not one of those things.

 

[TML fan]

There's no guarantee that playing "development minutes" in the AHL would have led to NHL success in Toronto either.

2 things:

1. Taking that position isn't problematic because it's untrue, it's problematic because it essentially reduces every single conversation about a hockey player to the uncertainty of the universe. Did the Leafs make the wrong choice between Rask and Pogge? Did the Flyers between Lindros and Forsberg? The Senators with Daigle over Pronger? Each and every one of those is also inherently unknowable in any tangible sense. I'd think that any desire to discuss sports beyond a level of the cut and dried of what physically happens would require someone to make certain allowances for talent as a constant.

2. Regardless of guarantees, there are things that have better odds of success than others. The way the Leafs tried to develop Tlusty is not one of those things.

I pretty much agree with that. The argument is not about whether or not the Leafs should have kept Tlusty. The argument is about the poor job the Leafs did with his development. I have no reason to believe that all of a sudden a prospect would emerge in the same organization that stunted his growth in the first place. Seems to me trading him was the right call.

 

[Kin]

The argument is not about whether or not the Leafs should have kept Tlusty.

Well, no. They should have.

The argument is about the poor job the Leafs did with his development. I have no reason to believe that all of a sudden a prospect would emerge in the same organization that stunted his growth in the first place.

I think the reason to believe it was a distinct possibility is that the organization itself underwent some pretty significant changes between when Tlusty was mishandled and when he was traded. New NHL head coach, new GM, new AHL head coach. I don't think there's any reason to think that what JFJ/Maurice did couldn't be undone by Burke/Wilson/Eakins just as easily as it was Jim Rutherford simply by virtue of the fact that the name on the front of the  Jersey didn't change.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It's not even that the Leafs "stunted" his growth, he just wasn't given long enough development time with the team.  It's just as likely he would have gone through the same growth had he done this with other teams - he's older now and finding his NHL game.

 

[TML fan]

The argument is not about whether or not the Leafs should have kept Tlusty.

Well, no. They should have.

The argument is about the poor job the Leafs did with his development. I have no reason to believe that all of a sudden a prospect would emerge in the same organization that stunted his growth in the first place.

I think the reason to believe it was a distinct possibility is that the organization itself underwent some pretty significant changes between when Tlusty was mishandled and when he was traded. New NHL head coach, new GM, new AHL head coach. I don't think there's any reason to think that what JFJ/Maurice did couldn't be undone by Burke/Wilson/Eakins just as easily as it was Jim Rutherford simply by virtue of the fact that the name on the front of the  Jersey didn't change.

Seems to me you're making the argument that the new staff mishandled him as well.

 

[Kin]

Seems to me you're making the argument that the new staff mishandled him as well.

Nope. Tlusty had a very good 85 games under Eakins in the AHL and then was traded.

 

[Jalili]

It's sad whenever a player in the organization gets traded for scraps and then realizes his full value with another team.

Despite what some are say I think they'd welcome him back as a Leaf pretty quickly.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

A couple goals last night, up to 21 points in 24 games.  Hope he can continue to see some success.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Was Tlusty not the guy caught with his pants down..literally.

 

[dappleganger]

Was Tlusty not the guy caught with his pants down..literally.

I PM'd you the link. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Update: Hat-trick for Tlusty so far against Washington - 17 goals on the season.

 

[bustaheims]

Update: Hat-trick for Tlusty so far against Washington - 17 goals on the season.

22 23 now. A nice example of how being patient with prospects can pay off.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Update: Hat-trick for Tlusty so far against Washington - 17 goals on the season.

22 23 now. A nice example of how being patient with prospects can pay off.

He recently played his 200th came with the Hurricanes. That's pretty incredible.