Training Camp

[13th fan]

I think that's the case in these staged fights, but when tempers run high and there is real reason for a fight, sticking up for a teammate after a bad hit etc, it almost definitely helps the team, gives most of the team an extra stride.

That strikes me as a largely different issue though. A guy like Orr, who hardly sees the ice, isn't likely to be the guy who's going to have that "Clark is really nailing McSorley" moment. At best, in a game where something like that takes place, he's really only likely to get in a scrap with someone after the fact and even then only if that player is a guy who'd fight Orr in the first place.

I tend to agree what your saying and Orr is most definitely not the Clark type player but I do think his presence may encourage some players to be truculent  :

 

[princedpw]

Let me summarize with an analogy that is more my style:  The argument is that having a fighter at the end of the bench is like a placebo:  he doesn't actually do anything but he makes the rest of the team feel better and play better.

The flaw in this analogy is that one can very easily measure the placebo effect and it's effect is very strong.  I know the advanced stats guys have looked hard to try to see if they can measure the impact of having a fighter -- looking for correlations between fighting majors and wins, for instance.  So far, they haven't found any correlation.  That doesn't mean a fighter can have no impact whatsoever.  It may mean they haven't quite got the right data.  It may mean that just having a guy that gets a lot of fighting majors doesn't matter.  What might matter is the percentage of times a guy has a "clear victory" and we don't have data of that sort ... etc.  (If that were to turn out to be the case, one couldnt argue for just any enforcer, it would have to be the right sort -- having the wrong sort, might be a disadvantage.)  It may also be that the guy you play 5 minutes per game on the 4th line has such a small impact on the outcome of the game that Colton Orr vs Alex Mogilny for those 5 minutes with other 4th line players doesn't matter enough to be detectable statistically. It is hard to know.  I do think that if having a generic enforcer vs not having one made a really substantial difference, it would be possible to detect it statistically. So at best we are talking about minimally important stuff -- stuff that is less influential than things like face-off success.

 

[Kin]

The other thing I'd throw in there is that I think the idea that not having an enforcer violates established hockey wisdom isn't really true. The idea of a guy like Orr, the guy who really does nothing well but fight, is relatively modern. People like to cite guys like John Ferguson as examples of it from back in the day but the reality is that Ferguson could play, scoring as many as 29 goals and only failing to score 15 in one season.

The enforcer as we've come to know it really only emerged in the 70's and 80's where expansion, the iron curtain and competing leagues combined to really thin the talent pool and make it so some teams tried to sell boxing matches rather than hockey games.

I think the talent pool has caught up to the number of teams in the league and teams can afford to be a little choosier with who they suit up. I don't discount the value having a tough guy on the team can bring, I think it's what makes guys like Lucic as valuable as they are.

What I doubt is that absent a guy like that you'd go with a fighter as opposed to a hockey player. I think in today's game, fighting is an elective, not a requirement.

 

[13th fan]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

 

[rdowdall]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

I think that comes down to the team though.  If you use the Detroit example again, if someone ran after Lidstrom, people got angry.  That Leaf team lacked that element.  And it's not an element that is brought by one player, it is something that the whole team has to come together on, that whole us against the world mentality.

If Orr can actually play, then I have not problem with him playing.  If he can play five minutes a night, provide a defensive presence on the fourth line, and some energy while establishing a forecheck, then I think he adds value to the team.  If he can't do those things, then he shouldn't play. 

 

[Bonsixx]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

That clip just makes me miss Darcy Tucker. The only guy who looked ticked off wasn't even dressed that night. Was this incident before or after the fight where Tucker beat Janssen's head in with his own helmet?

 

[leafplasma]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

I think that comes down to the team though.  If you use the Detroit example again, if someone ran after Lidstrom, people got angry.  That Leaf team lacked that element.  And it's not an element that is brought by one player, it is something that the whole team has to come together on, that whole us against the world mentality.

If Orr can actually play, then I have not problem with him playing.  If he can play five minutes a night, provide a defensive presence on the fourth line, and some energy while establishing a forecheck, then I think he adds value to the team.  If he can't do those things, then he shouldn't play.

That is just it though guys.  From all accounts from Orr's conditioning going into this season, from his time with Eakins and the Marlies last year, from what RC and Nonis have been saying via pressers, this is a vastly different Colton Orr then what we have seen so far in Toronto.  It is more of a throw back to his Ranger days.  Fighting will be there but that is not what he will focus on.  He will be one abrasive, ornery, forechecking SOB.  One that I can see as being effective in a fourth line role.  I am sure that a Komarov or maybe a Kulemin will drop down and spell Orr for an extra shift in certain situations where we may need a more all around solid defensive 4th line shift, however I see no problem in adding the extra grit to this lineup and personally I love his presence on certain nights.

 

[Redleaf]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

Makes me sick just watching that hit. Kaberle was never quite the same player again after that.

 

[L K]

I'm not sure exactly why pre-season talk from the coaching staff would mean anything more than lip service.  Great, Orr is in the best shape of his life.  Great, he's back to the player he was in New York. 

That last season in New York:  1G  4A  -15 with 189 penalty minutes. 
He took 2x as many penalties as he drew that year.  He played 6 minutes a game.  He was a team worst in terms of goals against relative to goals for.

Not exactly sure why a guy getting back to the shape of a bad hockey player is something to be remotely happy about.  To me I would much rather have Steckel playing 5 minutes of ES-TOI and having him take key defensive faceoffs or play on the PK where you can adjust his minutes accordingly if the team is on the defensive a lot.

I agree a lot that the Leafs really need to be careful about having too many offensive minded players, but once again, the Leafs defense seems to be devoid of defensive accumen and having a guy who can't play hockey on the roster doesn't make that better.

We can all look at the Cam Janssen thing all we want, but Janssen gets his face punched in all of the time.  Do you honestly think that he wouldn't do stupid stuff if Orr was on the ice in that game?

 

[nutman]

I'm not sure exactly why pre-season talk from the coaching staff would mean anything more than lip service.  Great, Orr is in the best shape of his life.  Great, he's back to the player he was in New York. 

That last season in New York:  1G  4A  -15 with 189 penalty minutes. 
He took 2x as many penalties as he drew that year.  He played 6 minutes a game.  He was a team worst in terms of goals against relative to goals for.

Not exactly sure why a guy getting back to the shape of a bad hockey player is something to be remotely happy about.  To me I would much rather have Steckel playing 5 minutes of ES-TOI and having him take key defensive faceoffs or play on the PK where you can adjust his minutes accordingly if the team is on the defensive a lot.

I agree a lot that the Leafs really need to be careful about having too many offensive minded players, but once again, the Leafs defense seems to be devoid of defensive accumen and having a guy who can't play hockey on the roster doesn't make that better.

We can all look at the Cam Janssen thing all we want, but Janssen gets his face punched in all of the time.  Do you honestly think that he wouldn't do stupid stuff if Orr was on the ice in that game?

Sure he would, but he would be looking over his shoulder all game as would his team mates, and that would give your team that extra second to take advantage of it.

 

[Frank E]

@Frank: ... I just don't get it I suppose ...

Think about it this way...when you go to the bar (went to the bar?), and you've got your eye on this wicked hot blonde, but you're not sure whether or not she's with another guy, or who she came here with, you're more likely to run your game if you came with a few buddies that could take care of things if someone decided to get tough. 

If you came to the bar with a couple of buddies that are more likely to bolt if things got a little rough, you're not nearly as likely to roll the dice and take a run at her.

Something tells me that metaphor may not help.

Tell me more about the guy the hot blonde is with.  He seems like he might be my type.   




(I may have missed your point initially because I was laughing so hard at the kind of situation you imagined I might be in.  All in good fun though.)

Damn it, I thought that would really hit home.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm not sure exactly why pre-season talk from the coaching staff would mean anything more than lip service.  Great, Orr is in the best shape of his life.  Great, he's back to the player he was in New York. 

That last season in New York:  1G  4A  -15 with 189 penalty minutes. 
He took 2x as many penalties as he drew that year.  He played 6 minutes a game.  He was a team worst in terms of goals against relative to goals for.

Not exactly sure why a guy getting back to the shape of a bad hockey player is something to be remotely happy about.  To me I would much rather have Steckel playing 5 minutes of ES-TOI and having him take key defensive faceoffs or play on the PK where you can adjust his minutes accordingly if the team is on the defensive a lot.

I agree a lot that the Leafs really need to be careful about having too many offensive minded players, but once again, the Leafs defense seems to be devoid of defensive accumen and having a guy who can't play hockey on the roster doesn't make that better.

We can all look at the Cam Janssen thing all we want, but Janssen gets his face punched in all of the time.  Do you honestly think that he wouldn't do stupid stuff if Orr was on the ice in that game?

If they're going to play Orr, I hope that he spends his 5 minutes just hitting and using his body.

 

[Andy007]

I'm not sure exactly why pre-season talk from the coaching staff would mean anything more than lip service.  Great, Orr is in the best shape of his life.  Great, he's back to the player he was in New York. 

That last season in New York:  1G  4A  -15 with 189 penalty minutes. 
He took 2x as many penalties as he drew that year.  He played 6 minutes a game.  He was a team worst in terms of goals against relative to goals for.

Not exactly sure why a guy getting back to the shape of a bad hockey player is something to be remotely happy about.  To me I would much rather have Steckel playing 5 minutes of ES-TOI and having him take key defensive faceoffs or play on the PK where you can adjust his minutes accordingly if the team is on the defensive a lot.

I agree a lot that the Leafs really need to be careful about having too many offensive minded players, but once again, the Leafs defense seems to be devoid of defensive accumen and having a guy who can't play hockey on the roster doesn't make that better.

We can all look at the Cam Janssen thing all we want, but Janssen gets his face punched in all of the time.  Do you honestly think that he wouldn't do stupid stuff if Orr was on the ice in that game?

If they're going to play Orr, I hope that he spends his 5 minutes just hitting and using his body.

Personally I'd prefer to have an actual oar in the lineup. At least it won't take useless penalties.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm not sure exactly why pre-season talk from the coaching staff would mean anything more than lip service.  Great, Orr is in the best shape of his life.  Great, he's back to the player he was in New York. 

That last season in New York:  1G  4A  -15 with 189 penalty minutes. 
He took 2x as many penalties as he drew that year.  He played 6 minutes a game.  He was a team worst in terms of goals against relative to goals for.

Not exactly sure why a guy getting back to the shape of a bad hockey player is something to be remotely happy about.  To me I would much rather have Steckel playing 5 minutes of ES-TOI and having him take key defensive faceoffs or play on the PK where you can adjust his minutes accordingly if the team is on the defensive a lot.

I agree a lot that the Leafs really need to be careful about having too many offensive minded players, but once again, the Leafs defense seems to be devoid of defensive accumen and having a guy who can't play hockey on the roster doesn't make that better.

We can all look at the Cam Janssen thing all we want, but Janssen gets his face punched in all of the time.  Do you honestly think that he wouldn't do stupid stuff if Orr was on the ice in that game?

If they're going to play Orr, I hope that he spends his 5 minutes just hitting and using his body.

Personally I'd prefer to have an actual oar in the lineup. At least it won't take useless penalties.

Well if I'm going to take silly analogies literally, since an actual oar can't skate, wouldn't it be like playing shorthanded, and ergo, worse than Orr taking penalties sometimes to make us shorthanded?

My work is done here.

 

[Justin]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

Wade Belak pulverized Janssen the next time those 2 teams played. It as probably my best memory of him as a Leaf.

 

[nutman]

I might be reaching here and it might be a bad example but I think Orr has a role and making some play bigger but I really don't want see this happen  to my team and hardly get any reactions  from your team mates , especially something like this [youtube]WgDUNn8q4qo[/youtube]

Wade Belak pulverized Janssen the next time those 2 teams played. It as probably my best memory of him as a Leaf.

I miss Wade...

 

[moon111]

I've never seen a goal scored that got the old blood pumping like Clark fighting McSorley in the playoffs.  Maybe I'm bias because I love passionate hockey.  Sundin was a machine offensively, but honestly like an assembly line, I could just as well read the stats to find the results the next day.  Honestly Leo Komarov, JVR, Brown, and Orr would be the reasons I'd think about having my TV hooked back up.  I think they inject immediate energy into the game.

 

[cw]

I've never seen a goal scored that got the old blood pumping like Clark fighting McSorley in the playoffs.  Maybe I'm bias because I love passionate hockey.  Sundin was a machine offensively, but honestly like an assembly line, I could just as well read the stats to find the results the next day.  Honestly Leo Komarov, JVR, Brown, and Orr would be the reasons I'd think about having my TV hooked back up.  I think they inject immediate energy into the game.

The one thing about this roster and collection of talent that isn't being said is that if they run into a problem with being too soft for example:

Given their delcaration that they want to try JVR at center, they could swap Kadri for Frattin and do this:

Lupul JVR Kessel
MacArthur Grabovski Kulemin
Frattin  McClement Komarov
Brown Steckel Orr
Bozak (sits)

Gardiner(Kostka) Phaneuf
Liles Komisarek
Holzer Fraser (top Marlies shutdown / PK pairing)

sit: Franson Gunnarsson

A number of folks would't know it but Fraser is a mean player. 8 AHL fights so far this season defending his teammates, and he hits and plays tough. I've seen a couple of Holzer fights as well.

The only really soft guys in that line up would be Kessel, Liles & Gardiner. That group would be tough to play against, probably better defensively but the downside is that they probably wouldn't score as much.

We could bicker about my choices above but this roster does have some options it didn't have last year in terms of being harder to play against.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I've never seen a goal scored that got the old blood pumping like Clark fighting McSorley in the playoffs.  Maybe I'm bias because I love passionate hockey.  Sundin was a machine offensively, but honestly like an assembly line, I could just as well read the stats to find the results the next day.  Honestly Leo Komarov, JVR, Brown, and Orr would be the reasons I'd think about having my TV hooked back up.  I think they inject immediate energy into the game.

The one thing about this roster and collection of talent that isn't being said is that if they run into a problem with being too soft for example:

Given their delcaration that they want to try JVR at center, they could swap Kadri for Frattin and do this:

Lupul JVR Kessel
MacArthur Grabovski Kulemin
Frattin  McClement Komarov
Brown Steckel Orr
Bozak (sits)

Gardiner(Kostka) Phaneuf
Liles Komisarek
Holzer Fraser (top Marlies shutdown / PK pairing)

sit: Franson Gunnarsson

A number of folks would't know it but Fraser is a mean player. 8 AHL fights so far this season defending his teammates, and he hits and plays tough. I've seen a couple of Holzer fights as well.

The only really soft guys in that line up would be Kessel, Liles & Gardiner. That group would be tough to play against, probably better defensively but the downside is that they probably wouldn't score as much.

We could bicker about my choices above but this roster does have some options it didn't have last year in terms of being harder to play against.

I'd be stunned if Gunarsson sees any time as a healthy scratch, unless he is carrying a minor injury and they don't want to put him on IR.

He is our most reliable dman.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'd be stunned if Gunarsson sees any time as a healthy scratch, unless he is carrying a minor injury and they don't want to put him on IR.

He is our most reliable dman.

Agreed.