Useless Thread

[Frank E]

So I'm not saying this about the people in this thread(and certainly not LK) but I find a certain amount of despair in the complaints about the problems with air travel.

Leaving aside the environmental reckoning we're going to have to deal with in terms of air travel on demand(and boy howdy, are going to have to reckon with that) disruptions with air travel were such a natural and predictable consequence of the Western world's Covid policy of "Pretend it isn't happening and let the weak die in the service of people's convenience" that I really would have thought that at the very least there'd be less complaining about it.

I mean, just the physical realities of air travel mean airline staff are the most exposed to Covid and air lines aren't going to have this massive roster of staff on stand-by to fill in...like, how did people think air travel was going to work in a post-Covid world?

I can usually see your point, I might not agree but I can usually understand it...but I'm having trouble with what your message is here.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

So I'm not saying this about the people in this thread(and certainly not LK) but I find a certain amount of despair in the complaints about the problems with air travel.

Leaving aside the environmental reckoning we're going to have to deal with in terms of air travel on demand(and boy howdy, are going to have to reckon with that) disruptions with air travel were such a natural and predictable consequence of the Western world's Covid policy of "Pretend it isn't happening and let the weak die in the service of people's convenience" that I really would have thought that at the very least there'd be less complaining about it.

I mean, just the physical realities of air travel mean airline staff are the most exposed to Covid and air lines aren't going to have this massive roster of staff on stand-by to fill in...like, how did people think air travel was going to work in a post-Covid world?

I can usually see your point, I might not agree but I can usually understand it...but I'm having trouble with what your message is here.

What I took from it and I'm probably wrong is, what did people expect to happen?

Pretend covid has gone away, reduce staff, allow no masks, no vaccines in a lot of places, take government handouts while still making profits and not investing in addressing these problems that a blind person could see coming and this is what you're left with, no accountability, no solutions, just capitalism caught with its pants down and it's hands in the public purse yelling durrrr.

Oh and maybe this could have been a catalyst to make air travel more green...

 

[Kin]

So I'm not saying this about the people in this thread(and certainly not LK) but I find a certain amount of despair in the complaints about the problems with air travel.

Leaving aside the environmental reckoning we're going to have to deal with in terms of air travel on demand(and boy howdy, are going to have to reckon with that) disruptions with air travel were such a natural and predictable consequence of the Western world's Covid policy of "Pretend it isn't happening and let the weak die in the service of people's convenience" that I really would have thought that at the very least there'd be less complaining about it.

I mean, just the physical realities of air travel mean airline staff are the most exposed to Covid and air lines aren't going to have this massive roster of staff on stand-by to fill in...like, how did people think air travel was going to work in a post-Covid world?

I can usually see your point, I might not agree but I can usually understand it...but I'm having trouble with what your message is here.

What I took from it and I'm probably wrong is, what did people expect to happen?

Pretend covid has gone away, reduce staff, allow no masks, no vaccines in a lot of places, take government handouts while still making profits and not investing in addressing these problems that a blind person could see coming and this is what you're left with, no accountability, no solutions, just capitalism caught with its pants down and it's hands in the public purse yelling durrrr.

Oh and maybe this could have been a catalyst to make air travel more green...

You're certainly not wrong. "How did people miss that ignoring an airborne pandemic would wreak havoc on staffing levels of a business dependent on staff being jammed into a metal tube with hundreds of other people for hours at a time" is definitely part of it. Everyone should have known that air travel during a pandemic wouldn't work as well as air travel pre-pandemic without massive changes but those changes weren't made, air travel isn't working well and people are outraged(although again, not talking about people in this thread).

In the Coronavirus thread I talked about how the "Let society open up! We have to learn to live with Covid" was so transparently misleading because the people advocating it weren't actually advocating for dealing with the natural consequences of those actions and the public investment needed to accommodate that(better ventilators in schools and LTC facilities, expanding health care capabilities, etc) but rather they were just advocating for opening up society, reaping the perceived benefits and not dealing with the hard questions that would leave us. It wasn't living with Covid, it was acting as if Covid wasn't here.

As someone who thinks that our society existing for much longer sort of depends on privileged people being ok with being less selfish in order for us to make meaningful changes in the way we live, it's fairly disheartening to see that not only are people unwilling to accept even minor inconveniences for the common welfare of society like masks, they're not even able to accept the consequences of their own obstinacy once they've gotten everything they want.

 

[L K]

So I'm not saying this about the people in this thread(and certainly not LK) but I find a certain amount of despair in the complaints about the problems with air travel.

Leaving aside the environmental reckoning we're going to have to deal with in terms of air travel on demand(and boy howdy, are going to have to reckon with that) disruptions with air travel were such a natural and predictable consequence of the Western world's Covid policy of "Pretend it isn't happening and let the weak die in the service of people's convenience" that I really would have thought that at the very least there'd be less complaining about it.

I mean, just the physical realities of air travel mean airline staff are the most exposed to Covid and air lines aren't going to have this massive roster of staff on stand-by to fill in...like, how did people think air travel was going to work in a post-Covid world?

I mean absolutely.  My venting was mostly 1st world problems annoyance.  I chose to help out a struggling hospital up north and the delays just messed with my timing to get rest before getting back to my usual job.  That's still on me for travelling at this time.

It just really exposed how awful the recruitment effort has been in terms of rolling out bringing these systems back into "pre covid" has been.  Air Canada is booking flights that they don't have pilots to fly the plane.  The flights are unsurprisingly being cancelled and travelers are being left stranded for things that should never have been available to be booked in the first place.

From the airline perspective the COVID infection rates have been pretty minimal.  It's more that airports and airlines laid off a lot of workers and are doing nothing to incentivize them to come back to work. 

Its the same problem in every industry that isn't paying well enough/staffing well enough to keep their employment base afloat.

I certainly do agree with you on the we are at a crossroads angle of society though.  My concern is that if anything we continue to push further away from having that difficult discussions as the generation that would get most negatively affected by those changes clings to power.

 

[Bullfrog]

...
As someone who thinks that our society existing for much longer sort of depends on privileged people being ok with being less selfish in order for us to make meaningful changes in the way we live, it's fairly disheartening to see that not only are people unwilling to accept even minor inconveniences for the common welfare of society like masks, they're not even able to accept the consequences of their own obstinacy once they've gotten everything they want.

That requires comprehension of the causality of their actions.

 

[Arn]

So I'm not saying this about the people in this thread(and certainly not LK) but I find a certain amount of despair in the complaints about the problems with air travel.

Leaving aside the environmental reckoning we're going to have to deal with in terms of air travel on demand(and boy howdy, are going to have to reckon with that) disruptions with air travel were such a natural and predictable consequence of the Western world's Covid policy of "Pretend it isn't happening and let the weak die in the service of people's convenience" that I really would have thought that at the very least there'd be less complaining about it.

I mean, just the physical realities of air travel mean airline staff are the most exposed to Covid and air lines aren't going to have this massive roster of staff on stand-by to fill in...like, how did people think air travel was going to work in a post-Covid world?

It's nothing to do with covid rates or illness, it's to do with selling seats on flights or airports allowing airlines to use take off slots for which they don't have the staff employed for.

Airlines laid off pilots and stewarding staff and are now selling flights when they know they don't have the right number of staff available to staff those. And that's before any potential sickness kicks in.

One of the airlines in the UK is literally removing the back 2 rows of seats from planes to change the capacity so they can put one fewer steward on board. Sounds a sensible move.

Guess what? They've removed the seats having already sold them so people are turning up and getting on to the plane... and there's no physical seat for them to sit in.

Airports laid off all their security and shop staff etc.

They then decided to just ramp straight back up and start running the same number of flights as they had done when fully staffed.

But they didn't proactively recruit staff to fill the roles in anticipation of that ramp up or slowly and incrementally increase the flight levels.

Another of the issues we've had in the UK is that airport staff need a certain level of security clearance. The body that does the criminal checks suddenly received in thousands of extra applications and THEY don't have the staffing capacity to process them on time so it takes longer and longer to fill those roles.

So anyone who has booked travel in good faith and gets messed about by that I think has a right to feel aggrieved.

 

[Arn]

Apologies- I've just seen further replies. I don't disagree with the general point about air travel and environment etc

I think in this case the people who should be getting the flak are the airlines and airports though.

I can't blame people for wanting to travel at all, when they've basically been conditioned to do so. Yes we need to change that conditioning, but if someone books a flight they have a right to expect the service they've paid for to be delivered.

If the company delivering it can't do it they need to scale down to a level they can deliver.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Apologies- I've just seen further replies. I don't disagree with the general point about air travel and environment etc

I think in this case the people who should be getting the flak are the airlines and airports though.

I can't blame people for wanting to travel at all, when they've basically been conditioned to do so. Yes we need to change that conditioning, but if someone books a flight they have a right to expect the service they've paid for to be delivered.

If the company delivering it can't do it they need to scale down to a level they can deliver.

This would be my largest complaint. If you can't provide the service, do not offer the service.

I flew from Sudbury to Montreal a couple weeks ago. My total time in an airport or plane was supposed to be 4 hrs(minus check in). My total time turned into 14hrs and I left without my bag at the other end. We sat on the runway waiting for permission to take off for 3hrs. We then circled the airport for 30 minutes in Montreal and again, waited 3hrs on the ground before being allowed to take a gate. I then sat and waited for 3hrs for my bags to be unloaded from the very plane I'd been on. The bags from that plane did not hit the carousel until 8am the next day.

I get what Nik is saying. I don't necessarily disagree with it. We have been spoiled by fairly routine, non eventful travel for most of our adult lives. That said, just like when my brand new dishwasher doesn't work, I'm allowed to be upset when the travel I've paid good money for doesn't deliver on their services.

 

[Kin]

It's nothing to do with covid rates or illness, it's to do with selling seats on flights or airports allowing airlines to use take off slots for which they don't have the staff employed for.

Airlines laid off pilots and stewarding staff and are now selling flights when they know they don't have the right number of staff available to staff those. And that's before any potential sickness kicks in.

One of the airlines in the UK is literally removing the back 2 rows of seats from planes to change the capacity so they can put one fewer steward on board. Sounds a sensible move.

Guess what? They've removed the seats having already sold them so people are turning up and getting on to the plane... and there's no physical seat for them to sit in.

Airports laid off all their security and shop staff etc.

They then decided to just ramp straight back up and start running the same number of flights as they had done when fully staffed.

But they didn't proactively recruit staff to fill the roles in anticipation of that ramp up or slowly and incrementally increase the flight levels.

Another of the issues we've had in the UK is that airport staff need a certain level of security clearance. The body that does the criminal checks suddenly received in thousands of extra applications and THEY don't have the staffing capacity to process them on time so it takes longer and longer to fill those roles.

So anyone who has booked travel in good faith and gets messed about by that I think has a right to feel aggrieved.

This is all fair. Maybe my original point wasn't very well formed and the link between the points made here and my sort of general frustration with the way some people were acting as if the world post-Covid should be more or less as it was pre-Covid is a lot more tenuous than I thought. I'd heard different stuff regarding sickness as it relates to Airline staffing levels but I'm certainly not an expert and would defer to you and LK on the issue.

And I agree that there's a certain amount of understandable frustration that's expected if you're sold something and it doesn't deliver. I do sort of think we've had stories of how chaotic air travel is right now for a while to the extent that I think maybe expecting it to be anything else is maybe unrealistic until further notice but that's a broader comment than what I was saying and one I'm not that invested in.

Like I said, I wasn't looking to criticize anyone here even with my misconceptions. Just sort of venting about the ongoing state of the world. I may just have been off on this one.

 

[Arn]

I agree. I remember at the start of the pandemic all the environmental stories about the water in the Venice canals running clearer and air quality being almost instantly improved etc

And I was also hopeful that we wouldn?t return to the levels.

I kind of expected the way things would go would be that the airlines might never get back to the flight numbers they were running pre pandemic and prices would therefore rise. And that would be fine - if you wanted to travel you?d pay more. I think people would have been accepting of that.

It?s seems they?ve just tried to immediately return to running every flight but not actually considered the logistics. And the prices are way up anyway due to other factors. So by giving the impression of a return to ?normal? they?ve driven expectations for people that can?t be met.

So I blame the airlines for both the environmental impact and the impact on people.

 

[Kin]

I agree. I remember at the start of the pandemic all the environmental stories about the water in the Venice canals running clearer and air quality being almost instantly improved etc

And I was also hopeful that we wouldn?t return to the levels.

I kind of expected the way things would go would be that the airlines might never get back to the flight numbers they were running pre pandemic and prices would therefore rise. And that would be fine - if you wanted to travel you?d pay more. I think people would have been accepting of that.

I guess that sort of gets more to the question I had at the core of all that. Would people really be accepting of that? If society gets to a point where there really needs to be a drastic reduction of air travel and not just for temporary reasons like a pandemic or an erupting Icelandic volcano but for long-term climate action...would they really accept a shift backwards in the convenience we've come to expect of modern life?

I look at something as simple as the move towards working from home which is more convenient for people and could potentially drastically cut back on the amount people need to drive and even that is met with quite forceful pushback from defenders of the status quo like John Tory and Jacob Rhys-Mogg because it threatens the established order of how society worked and who profits from what.

I don't know, maybe just one of the lasting effects of the pandemic is I'm more pessimistic about our collective willingness to accept the potential changes we may have to make ahead.

 

[Bender]

I agree. I remember at the start of the pandemic all the environmental stories about the water in the Venice canals running clearer and air quality being almost instantly improved etc

And I was also hopeful that we wouldn?t return to the levels.

I kind of expected the way things would go would be that the airlines might never get back to the flight numbers they were running pre pandemic and prices would therefore rise. And that would be fine - if you wanted to travel you?d pay more. I think people would have been accepting of that.

I guess that sort of gets more to the question I had at the core of all that. Would people really be accepting of that? If society gets to a point where there really needs to be a drastic reduction of air travel and not just for temporary reasons like a pandemic or an erupting Icelandic volcano but for long-term climate action...would they really accept a shift backwards in the convenience we've come to expect of modern life?

I look at something as simple as the move towards working from home which is more convenient for people and could potentially drastically cut back on the amount people need to drive and even that is met with quite forceful pushback from defenders of the status quo like John Tory and Jacob Rhys-Mogg because it threatens the established order of how society worked and who profits from what.

I don't know, maybe just one of the lasting effects of the pandemic is I'm more pessimistic about our collective willingness to accept the potential changes we may have to make ahead.

The pandemic removed all doubt that we are screwed when we are faced with an incremental problem that all at once becomes a catastrophe.

 

[Arn]

Funny I got an email from Air Canada this morning, who I currently don't have any flights booked with. But it's the first airline I've seen acknowledge and admit they've got this wrong.

The full text is below:

At Air Canada, we know how important travel plans are. This is even more the case today when many are taking their first trip in years following the pandemic. Whether for long?anticipated vacations, visits with relatives and friends, or for business, we are grateful and recognize our responsibility when people like you entrust your travel to our airline.

Regrettably, things are not business as usual in our industry globally, and this is affecting our operations and our ability to serve you with our normal standards of care. The COVID?19 pandemic brought the world air transport system to a halt in early 2020. Now, after more than two years, global travel is resurgent, and people are returning to flying at a rate never seen in our industry.

This surge in travel has created unprecedented and unforeseen strains on all aspects of the global aviation system. Around the world, there are recurring incidents of flight delays and airport congestion, resulting from a complex array of persistent factors impacting airlines and our partners in the aviation ecosystem. Similar effects are being seen in other industries too, where companies and suppliers are struggling to restart, unclog supply chains and meet pent?up demand.

At Air Canada, we anticipated many of these factors and began taking tangible action during the depth of the pandemic to be ready for a rapid restart. Yet, despite detailed and careful planning, the largest and fastest scale of hiring in our history, as well as investments in aircraft and equipment, it is now clear that Air Canada?s operations too have been disrupted by the industry?s complex and unavoidable challenges. The result has been flight cancellations and customer service shortfalls on our part that we would never have intended for our customers or for our employees, and for which we sincerely apologize.

In response, we took a number of important steps, including introducing flexible ticket policies, new travel self-management tools, improvements to airport operations, as well adjustments to our schedule ? all to strengthen operational resiliency and to give customers more options. However, to bring about the level of operational stability we need, with reluctance, we are now making meaningful reductions to our schedule in July and August in order to reduce passenger volumes and flows to a level we believe the air transport system can accommodate.

This was not an easy decision, as it will result in additional flight cancellations that will have a negative impact on some customers. But doing this in advance allows affected customers to take time to make other arrangements in an orderly manner, rather than have their travel disrupted shortly before or during their journey, with few alternatives available. It will also enable us to more reliably serve all customers.

I can assure you Air Canada is also working in close cooperation with airports, government, and its third?party service providers, who all are striving to return our industry to pre?pandemic standards of operation.

We are convinced these changes will bring about the improvements we have targeted. But to set expectations, it should also be understood the real benefits of this action will take time and be felt only gradually as the industry regains the reliability and robustness it had attained prior to the pandemic.

On behalf of all of us at Air Canada, please accept my sincere apologies for any disruption you have experienced or may experience with your travel plans during this unprecedented period. I also assure you that we very clearly see the challenges at hand, that we are taking action, and that we are confident we have the strategy to address them. This is our company?s chief focus at every level.

Thank you for your patience and understanding. We certainly look forward to future opportunities to serve you and regain your loyalty at a time when we can better demonstrate our commitment to taking good care of customers such as yourself.

They acknowledge they've tried to put too many flights on, but I'm glad to see them reducing that. I think other airlines need to follow suit.

 

[Arn]

Meanwhile, in Heathrow:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61857008

 

[Kin]

A fun day for following UK politics. With senior government ministers resigning in protest over the current leadership PMQ has featured a line about the resignations as "The first recorded instance of sinking ships fleeing the rats" and described those who remained as "The charge of the lightweight brigade" and a "Z-List Group of Nodding Dogs".

 

[Arn]

Yet somehow Boris still can't see that he should resign, like any other semi decent person would have done.

Ah yes, sorry, I mistook him for being a semi decent person. My mistake.

 

[Kin]

Yet somehow Boris still can't see that he should resign, like any other semi decent person would have done.

Ah yes, sorry, I mistook him for being a semi decent person. My mistake.

It's an interesting thing with him because I feel it's, at every step, nothing but pure naked self-interest and being somewhat good at plotting his next moves. I don't even know that he wants to be PM. By all accounts he doesn't like the pay and he definitely doesn't seem like he enjoys doing the work. He clearly enjoys the power and the "respect" it affords him though so I kind of feel like his next step is calculating how he can maximize what he thinks is his next chapter and I think in his mind that if he gets forced out by a no-confidence vote it looks better for him than either resigning "honorably" or losing the next election. If he gets forced out he can sort of do the whole "See, with me they won a huge majority" thing if the Tories lose the next election and you figure his cache as someone paid a ton to give after-dinner speeches or serve on corporate boards is diminished if he's remembered as the PM who resigned in disgrace.

 

[Arn]

Basically he's a pound (dollar?) shop version of Trump.

He isn't quite so extreme, but he shares a lot of the same things, an inability to remain faithful to a partner, multiple (and unknown numbers of) kids from different mothers, self serving and self centred, egocentric, bordering on narcissistic.

He's in this for, as you say, what it can do for him (and his mates).

He's lied, broken centuries old conventions, literally broken the law, covered up multiple transgressions by himself and others within his circle, given out corrupt contracts to cronies.

It's actually quite astonishing what he's got away with, and even more so that many of those finally resigning now have continued to support him up until now. 

 

[Arn]

This is the kind of level his supporters are going to to continue to try and cover for him

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1544226722681331712

'Yes, he did the thing he was accused of, and an investigation confirmed he did that illegal act, but we decided not to punish him for it, so he isn't "guilty" '

 

[Arn]

I have never seen anyone be taken apart as badly as Johnson is by the liaison committee. It is absolutely excruciating. But hilarious.