WHOA - Mike Babcock OUT | Sheldon Keefe IN

[Frank E]

Agreed Nik. I pointed out in another thread how bare the prospect cupboard i, and the quick responses were:
1. a list of the prospects on the Marlies/ECHL/junior, which I though proved my point (rather than the intended affect of impressing me), and
2. the prospects are all up on the big club.

Obviously the Leafs are fortunate that they've got Matthews, Nylander, and Marner all under 24 years of age, but not much past that.

In the responses I got, I think people are being naively optimistic. There are a few guys who might end up being NHLers, but there are few bona fide prospects (Sandin, Liljegren, maybe Robertson?)

There are no real goalie prospects.

Ian Scott and Joseph Woll are pretty darn good goalie prospects: 

https://lastwordonhockey.com/2019/10/14/joseph-woll-ian-scott-toronto-maple-leafs/

 

[Kin]

I think the Dubas decision to go after Tavares suggests that Dubas was far more into the drive for the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

That doesn't really make a lot of sense. By the time Dubas was in charge and pursuing Tavares the team had made the playoffs twice in a row. They were a playoff team. 

Lou never took a drastic step like that one, nor did he trade away 2 first round picks in the span of 6 months.  I think if you say Lou accelerated the rebuild, then you'd have to say Dubas supercharged it.

Well no, because there really wasn't anything Dubas could do once he inherited a 100+ point team to somehow become a team with high draft picks again.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Well no, because there really wasn't anything Dubas could do once he inherited a 100+ point team to somehow become a team with high draft picks again.

Turns out he can. Good thing he protected the 2020 pick.

 

[Frank E]

I think the Dubas decision to go after Tavares suggests that Dubas was far more into the drive for the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

That doesn't really make a lot of sense. By the time Dubas was in charge and pursuing Tavares the team had made the playoffs twice in a row. They were a playoff team. 

Lou never took a drastic step like that one, nor did he trade away 2 first round picks in the span of 6 months.  I think if you say Lou accelerated the rebuild, then you'd have to say Dubas supercharged it.

Well no, because there really wasn't anything Dubas could do once he inherited a 100+ point team to somehow become a team with high draft picks again.

Dubas inherited a team that could have held onto its high draft picks, and not go after high-end free agents that would compromise its future cap space.

Dubas went down this path, and now they're in trouble on the ice, in cap space, in prospect depth, and they won't have a draft pick in the first round again in 2020, and now we want to go back and blame Lou's 3rd and 5th round picks of 3-4 years ago?  Come on.

 

[Kin]

Well no, because there really wasn't anything Dubas could do once he inherited a 100+ point team to somehow become a team with high draft picks again.

Turns out he can. Good thing he protected the 2020 pick.

They're literally a point out of a playoff spot.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Well no, because there really wasn't anything Dubas could do once he inherited a 100+ point team to somehow become a team with high draft picks again.

Turns out he can. Good thing he protected the 2020 pick.

They're literally a point out of a playoff spot.

Tongue in cheek gets lost in text.

 

[Zee]

I don't get why people are freaking out so much.  Yeah they've been bad, the top players haven't been consistent, but they're now playing more to their strengths under Keefe, and I think more wins will come.  The backup goalie situation has really caused the season to look horrible.  Even if Hutchinson won 3 of the 7 games he started, Leafs have 36 points right now and are 2nd in the division.  I have to believe that things will start to turn for the better, especially if the big boys start to perform to their capabilities now with Marner back and the lines set.

 

[Kin]

Dubas inherited a team that could have held onto its high draft picks, and not go after high-end free agents that would compromise its future cap space.

Saying that the Leafs shouldn't have gone after Tavares is a fair position to take and worthy of discussion but the idea that it was a decision made to accelerate a rebuild and get the team into the playoffs is just demonstrably false.

Dubas went down this path, and now they're in trouble on the ice, in cap space, in prospect depth, and they won't have a draft pick in the first round again in 2020, and now we want to go back and blame Lou's 3rd and 5th round picks of 3-4 years ago?  Come on.

I'm "blaming" those drafts for the state of the team's prospect base. A lousy prospect base hampers a team's ability to grow and improve without going after free agents or making trades.

Saying Lamoriello did a generally bad job while he was here isn't a defense of Dubas. It's possible for both guys to have done poorly.

 

[Bullfrog]

Agreed Nik. I pointed out in another thread how bare the prospect cupboard i, and the quick responses were:
1. a list of the prospects on the Marlies/ECHL/junior, which I though proved my point (rather than the intended affect of impressing me), and
2. the prospects are all up on the big club.

Obviously the Leafs are fortunate that they've got Matthews, Nylander, and Marner all under 24 years of age, but not much past that.

In the responses I got, I think people are being naively optimistic. There are a few guys who might end up being NHLers, but there are few bona fide prospects (Sandin, Liljegren, maybe Robertson?)

There are no real goalie prospects.

Ian Scott and Joseph Woll are pretty darn good goalie prospects: 

https://lastwordonhockey.com/2019/10/14/joseph-woll-ian-scott-toronto-maple-leafs/

I hope so. I'm a bit skeptical, but hopefully one of them turns out.

 

[Frank E]

Saying that the Leafs shouldn't have gone after Tavares is a fair position to take and worthy of discussion but the idea that it was a decision made to accelerate a rebuild and get the team into the playoffs is just demonstrably false.

Good thing I didn't say that it was a decision made to get them into the playoffs. 

I guess I think of a broader period of time when I use the term "rebuild".  Getting into the playoffs wasn't the end of the rebuilt for me.  For me, it's when they're conference finalists at least.

I'm "blaming" those drafts for the state of the team's prospect base. A lousy prospect base hampers a team's ability to grow and improve without going after free agents or making trades.

My argument was that the first round pick from this past draft, plus Sean Durzi (2nd rounder) and Carl Grundstrom traded for Muzzin has more to do with the lack of prospect depth, rather than a couple of 3rd or 5th round picks.

Saying Lamoriello did a generally bad job while he was here isn't a defense of Dubas. It's possible for both guys to have done poorly.

I agree with this statement. 

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Ian Scott and Joseph Woll are pretty darn good goalie prospects: 

https://lastwordonhockey.com/2019/10/14/joseph-woll-ian-scott-toronto-maple-leafs/

This article was written by someone whose tagline includes "I am a diehard Leafs fan who covers the Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Marlies". And none of his other handful of posts indicates that he's actually someone who seriously watches/scouts prospects so I'm not sure his opinion matters more than anyone else's here. Writing "both goalies are great prospects and look like NHL regulars for years to come" at this point in time is insanely optimistic.

Unless you're like a universally agreed on top-3 or top-5 goalie prospect in hockey you're very far from a sure thing.

 

[Kin]

Good thing I didn't say that it was a decision made to get them into the playoffs. 

You get that this is being recorded, right?

I think the Dubas decision to go after Tavares suggests that Dubas was far more into the drive for the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

My argument was that the first round pick from this past draft, plus Sean Durzi (2nd rounder) and Carl Grundstrom traded for Muzzin has more to do with the lack of prospect depth, rather than a couple of 3rd or 5th round picks.

So just to be clear, you think that Dubas trading away the #22 pick and two guys drafted at #52 and #57 has more to do with the problems with the prospect depth than trading away:

A 30th overall pick
A 48th overall pick
A 50th overall pick
A 56th overall pick
Getting effectively nothing from guys drafted at #31, 59 and 72(to say nothing of picks below there)
Not trading Bozak and JVR for picks

 

[Frank E]

I think the Dubas decision to go after Tavares suggests that Dubas was far more into the drive for the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

I was just repeating this line:

Also, he was behind the decision to fast track the rebuild and drive towards the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

Of course I know that the team was already a playoff team.  My point remains that Dubas continued the fast track of the rebuild, and fast tracked it more substantially than Lou ever did.

So just to be clear, you think that Dubas trading away the #22 pick and two guys drafted at #52 and #57 has more to do with the problems with the prospect depth than trading away:

A 30th overall pick
A 48th overall pick
A 50th overall pick
A 56th overall pick
Getting effectively nothing from guys drafted at #31, 59 and 72(to say nothing of picks below there)
Not trading Bozak and JVR for picks

Well, yes.  And I also think that Durzi and Grundstrom were more of a known quantity...and especially yes when you consider that Dubas already knew that he was in a tough prospect position, and made it even more dire with that trade.

I with you on the Bozak and JVR picks, but let's see what Dubas does with Muzzin and Barrie this February before we declare a winner there.

 

[Kin]

Of course I know that the team was already a playoff team.  My point remains that Dubas continued the fast track of the rebuild, and fast tracked it more substantially than Lou ever did.

Regardless of how you try to backpeddle, Dubas was not "driving towards the playoffs" because they were already there. The moves Dubas made, which are again debatable, were not ones where the team was potentially sacrificing potential top 5 or 10 picks. Realistically they were shifting draft position from the teens into the twenties at most.

Dubas took over a playoff team and tried to make them a better playoff team. No matter how you try to restate it, that's not the same thing as taking a team that should have been rebuilding and instead trading away assets.

Well, yes.

Fair enough. Still, you have to respect the fact that under Dubas the team has won the last three Stanley Cups.

 

[Frank E]

Ian Scott and Joseph Woll are pretty darn good goalie prospects: 

https://lastwordonhockey.com/2019/10/14/joseph-woll-ian-scott-toronto-maple-leafs/

This article was written by someone whose tagline includes "I am a diehard Leafs fan who covers the Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Marlies". And none of his other handful of posts indicates that he's actually someone who seriously watches/scouts prospects so I'm not sure his opinion matters more than anyone else's here. Writing "both goalies are great prospects and look like NHL regulars for years to come" at this point in time is insanely optimistic.

Unless you're like a universally agreed on top-3 or top-5 goalie prospect in hockey you're very far from a sure thing.

Maybe not the best choice of links, but from what I've read, these 2 guys are decent goaltending prospects...Frog's comment was that there were none.

 

[Bullfrog]

I said no "real prospects," which I admittedly didn't define. In a basic sense, I mean a prospect you can point to and say with some sense of certainty "yep, he's going to make the team and be a major contributor."

Currently, only Sandin and Liljegren fit that bill for me. And that's with an admission that "major contributor" is a nebulous term.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I don't get why people are freaking out so much.  Yeah they've been bad, the top players haven't been consistent, but they're now playing more to their strengths under Keefe, and I think more wins will come.  The backup goalie situation has really caused the season to look horrible.  Even if Hutchinson won 3 of the 7 games he started, Leafs have 36 points right now and are 2nd in the division.  I have to believe that things will start to turn for the better, especially if the big boys start to perform to their capabilities now with Marner back and the lines set.

I think you're right. They can turn this thing around. I heard an interesting stat yesterday. Leafs have been tied 7 times in the 3rd period where they never got a point. That has to change but in a positive turn it does show in those 7 losses, they were in the game. Have to get it to the finish line.

 

[hockeyfan1]

So far, under Keefe:

[tweet]1203517234347487232[/tweet]

 

[herman]

https://theathletic.com/1485961/2019/12/24/lebrun-qa-with-leafs-coach-sheldon-keefe-on-building-relationships-playing-aggressively-and-stacking-lines

there?s really not that much practice time in the modern NHL, either, so that?s another challenge for you. Now you have a lot of former Marlies players on your Leafs roster. It reminds me a bit when Jon Cooper took over in Tampa initially, he had some of his AHL players up with him and there was a lot of chemistry there. Do you feel that as well, that it?s been an advantage for you having such a large number of your former AHL players up with you now?

Yeah, I do, that has really been helpful. Of course, having those established relationships and kind of having a little more knowledge of a player?s strengths and weaknesses and all of those types of things. I think what has also helped me is just being in the organization. Even the players I hadn?t coached previously, I had been around for five training camps with the Leafs and with exhibition season, I?ve even been on the bench for some exhibition games. So I?ve had interactions with all of the players. And perhaps more importantly, I had known all of the staff members, all of the coaches, all of the training staff, all the equipment staff, all the media staff, management, all of them I had worked with as well through those exhibition games and training camps and other events that go around an organization. A lot of that credit has to go to Mike Babcock, because of the environment he created in terms of involving me and having me around and the importance of the Marlies to the program. The fact that he opened the doors and was so welcoming to me really helped in that situation.

There?s been a bit of piling on towards Mike Babcock since his firing. I think it was Chris Johnston of Sportsnet who had reported that Babcock had reached out to you after the change and wished you good luck. I think that gets forgotten in all this, I do think that it seemed like a welcome change behind the bench for the players in terms of your promotion, but it doesn?t mean that Babcock didn?t do some things that still help your team today?

Well, absolutely. He certainly had an impact on me like we?ve talked about in terms of just having me around and involving me in the discussions and having me in meetings. Our communication throughout the season and him coming to watch the Marlies play, all those types of things really helped me greatly. And, of course, just building the foundation of the organization and the team. I think it?s easy to forget where this team was before he arrived. He certainly did a lot of great work to put the team in a good spot. And there?s a lot of things that are still in place that we didn?t have to change with the team.

 

[Guilt Trip]

From the article, Keefe quote......

And there?s a lot of things that are still in place that we didn?t have to change with the team.

Like Freddie playing a lot! Very PC of Keefe though I wouldn't expect him to say man we had to change a lot of this stuff up. Amazing how the special teams coaches are the same and both are flourishing now. Many of us said it all along, Babs was running the show. Keefe is allowing his assistants to do their jobs.