2023-24 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[Guilt Trip]

As for the bolded part, that was Rasmus Sandin.  What a pissaway that trade was.  There's a fair bit that I miss about Dubas, but he sure made some glaringly stupid moves.

I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to Sandin in Washington. The stats say 1 assist in 11 games. Is there something more to this which says we didn't get fair value?

We got fair value for a guy that wasn't in the team's long-term plans.

 

[cw]

Sandin is better than several of our current D, is better than Gustafsson.  Affordable too.  He'd look real good in our lineup right now.

It might be a little unfair to judge Klingberg on too few games (ignoring that his defensive game seems to have fallen off a cliff a few seasons ago) but I'd take RFA-to-be Sandin and his $1.4 mil over UFA-to-be Klingberg and his $4 mil in a heartbeat right now. I bet the Caps wouldn't do that deal. The cap money that would free up could be used to acquire a physical dman.

I followed Sandin a fair bit after his departure last season. 15 pts in 19 games for the Caps with Carlson & Baskstrom hurt. But the team stumbled. Haven't seen much of him this season. He was -7 but a lot of that was not on him. I looked at all the goals.

Sandin is #2 behind Carlson in ice time among their dmen this season and leads among even strength ice time so his coaches must like him (Laviolette last season, Carbery this season) He's their only dman not in the red in +/- this year - not that that is the most reliable number. Washington is offensively challenged this season. Ovechkin is on pace for 16 goals. Backstrom coming off major surgery only has a point. Carlson's gone pointless on the PP with more than 80% of PP ice time for dmen.

Sandin is only 23 years old. A good bang for the buck. He's likely to improve. He got considerably physically stronger last season. The way McCabe's playoffs went and how he's played so far, Sandin might be #3 on this roster right now. I was sorry to see him go.

If they needed a right handed offensive dman PP specialist, they could have re-signed Gustasvson for the league minimum and got a crease clearer for the PK. (I write the above hypocritically - reminding myself of that poster KEON who pestered us with woulda, coulda, shoulda ... )

Having said that, It will probably take them until the end of November to shake out the system changes and personnel. I do expect them to improve some.

 

[herman]

As someone who likes Sandin a lot, I don't think he is what the Leafs need.

If he was on the current depth chart, devoid of injury, he'd be about in line with Conor Timmins for me.

Rielly, Brodie
Giordano (experience)
Liljegren
McCabe
Timmins, Sandin
Giordano (physically)
Lagesson

Benoit



Klingberg


Lajoie

 

[cabber24]

I heard Klingberg injured his medulla oblongata and needs to go to a specialty clinic in the Bahamas, LTIR...  paging Dr. Robidas.

Get better future Leafs scout.

 

[cw]

As someone who likes Sandin a lot, I don't think he is what the Leafs need.

If he was on the current depth chart, devoid of injury, he'd be about in line with Conor Timmins for me.

Rielly, Brodie
Giordano (experience)
Liljegren
McCabe
Timmins, Sandin
Giordano (physically)
Lagesson

Benoit



Klingberg


Lajoie

Take out the guys hurt

Rielly, Brodie
McCabe
Sandin
Giordano (physically) - about where he belongs due to age/physically
Lagesson
Benoit
Klingberg

The one difference is I'm not sure what we have in McCabe.
I thought when we got him and during last regular season, he was #3
But the playoffs and this season, I'm starting to wonder.
Hope it is the injury.

You're only paying Sandin a half mil more than the AHLers.
He could sure help right now.

I like Liljegren better but he's hurt.
Timmons gives them the offensive option on the PP from the right side but he's hurt.
Depending on who we have, I might keep Sandin or might keep Timmons.

But I agree and have since camp that they need a physical dman who can help with the PK and defending - particularly for the playoffs.

 

[bustaheims]

I read this as him falling off the defensive cliff a couple of seasons ago.  I presume Treliving has plenty of access to this kind of data.

I don?t think he was signed with the expectation his defence would improve dramatically, but that his offensive abilities would be reenergized playing in the Leafs? system. That hasn?t happen, which is a problem, as having another blue liner who can skate with the puck has been a need since before last season. If he could provide that, it would also help mitigate some of his defensive shortcomings.

Good points.  He'd have to produce like Cale Makar to outscore his "defense," though.

As for the bolded part, that was Rasmus Sandin.  What a pissaway that trade was.  There's a fair bit that I miss about Dubas, but he sure made some glaringly stupid moves.

The problem is that it wasn?t Sandin. His skating isn?t good enough to be that guy, which is why it?s been a problem since well before he was dealt. He was very susceptible to the forecheck in a way that the type of skating defenceman the Leafs have needed wouldn?t be.

 

[herman]

https://x.com/jtbourne/status/1723081488701296758

In his more composed moments [Keefe] managed to get across the sentiment ?we need to be better? with statements like: ?The team and cohesion of the group, the process that you play with, should take care of everybody. That is where we have been disconnected at times.?

The implicit idea shared there is just about the only one the coach is allowed to share, which is that if everyone commits a little more to defence and team structure, they can be better and get this thing going in the right direction. I say it?s the only thing he can share because he?s the coach, not the GM, so saying ?Our team does not have good enough defensive players to defend well consistently? is a direct call-out and probably gets you fired.

 

[ZBBM]

I read this as him falling off the defensive cliff a couple of seasons ago.  I presume Treliving has plenty of access to this kind of data.

I don?t think he was signed with the expectation his defence would improve dramatically, but that his offensive abilities would be reenergized playing in the Leafs? system. That hasn?t happen, which is a problem, as having another blue liner who can skate with the puck has been a need since before last season. If he could provide that, it would also help mitigate some of his defensive shortcomings.

Good points.  He'd have to produce like Cale Makar to outscore his "defense," though.

As for the bolded part, that was Rasmus Sandin.  What a pissaway that trade was.  There's a fair bit that I miss about Dubas, but he sure made some glaringly stupid moves.

The problem is that it wasn?t Sandin. His skating isn?t good enough to be that guy, which is why it?s been a problem since well before he was dealt. He was very susceptible to the forecheck in a way that the type of skating defenceman the Leafs have needed wouldn?t be.

cw speaks for me.

 

[bustaheims]

I read this as him falling off the defensive cliff a couple of seasons ago.  I presume Treliving has plenty of access to this kind of data.

I don?t think he was signed with the expectation his defence would improve dramatically, but that his offensive abilities would be reenergized playing in the Leafs? system. That hasn?t happen, which is a problem, as having another blue liner who can skate with the puck has been a need since before last season. If he could provide that, it would also help mitigate some of his defensive shortcomings.

Good points.  He'd have to produce like Cale Makar to outscore his "defense," though.

As for the bolded part, that was Rasmus Sandin.  What a pissaway that trade was.  There's a fair bit that I miss about Dubas, but he sure made some glaringly stupid moves.

The problem is that it wasn?t Sandin. His skating isn?t good enough to be that guy, which is why it?s been a problem since well before he was dealt. He was very susceptible to the forecheck in a way that the type of skating defenceman the Leafs have needed wouldn?t be.

cw speaks for me.

That?s okay. You?re both allowed to be wrong.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Sandin now outscoring Cowan by 2 points this season.

 

[cw]

I read this as him falling off the defensive cliff a couple of seasons ago.  I presume Treliving has plenty of access to this kind of data.

I don?t think he was signed with the expectation his defence would improve dramatically, but that his offensive abilities would be reenergized playing in the Leafs? system. That hasn?t happen, which is a problem, as having another blue liner who can skate with the puck has been a need since before last season. If he could provide that, it would also help mitigate some of his defensive shortcomings.

Good points.  He'd have to produce like Cale Makar to outscore his "defense," though.

As for the bolded part, that was Rasmus Sandin.  What a pissaway that trade was.  There's a fair bit that I miss about Dubas, but he sure made some glaringly stupid moves.

The problem is that it wasn?t Sandin. His skating isn?t good enough to be that guy, which is why it?s been a problem since well before he was dealt. He was very susceptible to the forecheck in a way that the type of skating defenceman the Leafs have needed wouldn?t be.

cw speaks for me.

That?s okay. You?re both allowed to be wrong.

Did you know that Sandin has roughly average NHL speed of 21 mph? It was a little above. Now, it might be a little below after he beefed up in summer 2022. His bursts are also roughly average among dmen. For a dman, that's not bad. His skating time is faster than Giordano, Klingberg, Brodie, and faster than Marner's and Holmberg's times this preseason. Scouting reports describe his skating as smooth. I think that's fair. I do not see a gross technical flaw in his skating.

What used to happen to him on the forecheck in my opinion was he'd lose more puck battles. He beefed up last summer. It made him noticeably stronger on his skates and better in the puck battles. As he gets used to that muscle and more playing time, I think he'll get better. He's only 23 years old. There's some development time left.

 

[bustaheims]

Did you know that Sandin has roughly average NHL speed of 21 mph? It was a little above. Now, it might be a little below after he beefed up in summer 2022. His bursts are also roughly average among dmen. For a dman, that's not bad. His skating time is faster than Giordano, Klingberg, Brodie, and faster than Marner's and Holmberg's times this preseason. Scouting reports describe his skating as smooth. I think that's fair. I do not see a gross technical flaw in his skating.

What used to happen to him on the forecheck in my opinion was he'd lose more puck battles. He beefed up last summer. It made him noticeably stronger on his skates and better in the puck battles. As he gets used to that muscle and more playing time, I think he'll get better. He's only 23 years old. There's some development time left.

There?s more than just losing puck battles going on. His skating or his decision making are not good enough for him to be a guy that can currently be relied upon to efficiently skate the puck out of danger. If he were, he wouldn?t be as susceptible to the forecheck as often as he was. The Leafs need defenceman who can move the puck quickly, efficiently, and effectively - and Sandin has absolutely not shown himself to be able to reliably do that at the NHL level. Some of the skills might be there, but I don?t think he reads the game well enough from the defensive side of things, and he doesn?t skate well enough to compensate for that.

 

[ZBBM]

I read this as him falling off the defensive cliff a couple of seasons ago.  I presume Treliving has plenty of access to this kind of data.

I don?t think he was signed with the expectation his defence would improve dramatically, but that his offensive abilities would be reenergized playing in the Leafs? system. That hasn?t happen, which is a problem, as having another blue liner who can skate with the puck has been a need since before last season. If he could provide that, it would also help mitigate some of his defensive shortcomings.

Good points.  He'd have to produce like Cale Makar to outscore his "defense," though.

As for the bolded part, that was Rasmus Sandin.  What a pissaway that trade was.  There's a fair bit that I miss about Dubas, but he sure made some glaringly stupid moves.

The problem is that it wasn?t Sandin. His skating isn?t good enough to be that guy, which is why it?s been a problem since well before he was dealt. He was very susceptible to the forecheck in a way that the type of skating defenceman the Leafs have needed wouldn?t be.

cw speaks for me.

That?s okay. You?re both allowed to be wrong.

But we aren't. Pffffffffff

 

[cw]

Did you know that Sandin has roughly average NHL speed of 21 mph? It was a little above. Now, it might be a little below after he beefed up in summer 2022. His bursts are also roughly average among dmen. For a dman, that's not bad. His skating time is faster than Giordano, Klingberg, Brodie, and faster than Marner's and Holmberg's times this preseason. Scouting reports describe his skating as smooth. I think that's fair. I do not see a gross technical flaw in his skating.

What used to happen to him on the forecheck in my opinion was he'd lose more puck battles. He beefed up last summer. It made him noticeably stronger on his skates and better in the puck battles. As he gets used to that muscle and more playing time, I think he'll get better. He's only 23 years old. There's some development time left.

There?s more than just losing puck battles going on. His skating or his decision making are not good enough for him to be a guy that can currently be relied upon to efficiently skate the puck out of danger. If he were, he wouldn?t be as susceptible to the forecheck as often as he was. The Leafs need defenceman who can move the puck quickly, efficiently, and effectively - and Sandin has absolutely not shown himself to be able to reliably do that at the NHL level. Some of the skills might be there, but I don?t think he reads the game well enough from the defensive side of things, and he doesn?t skate well enough to compensate for that.

That is not a very encouraging assessment of his abilities.

Here's a part of that which doesn't make sense to me:
It goes somewhat beyond the aspects of his game that we're debating but I think in a way, it addresses it.

Laviolette coached a NHL team to a Cup, coached a few NHL teams, was picked to coach USA national team, etc. Rangers hired him for this season. To me, I can't say I've loved him but his resume doesn't strike me as a complete bum as a coach. Last season, his job was on the line - they kind of fired him at the end of the season. During the last 19 games, with his job on the line, he gave one defenseman a minute more ES ice time per game than any other Caps dman: Sandin. If he saw Sandin's name as defensively flawed like you do, that choice on ice time is hard to reconcile with your assessment.

Ok, so for the purpose of moving the discussion along, let's assume for a moment Laviolette wanted to get fired and that's why he gave Sandin so much ES ice time or maybe he got stupid ... whatever

Carbery comes along. He coaches against Sandin in the AHL. So he has some awareness of him between 2018 and 2020 or so. Then he is assistant coach for the Leafs for the previous two seasons - up close with Sandin on the team he coaches. Then he goes to Washington this summer. He must have a real career death wish if he agrees with your assessment because he is giving Sandin 2.5 minutes more ES ice time per game than any other dman on his team. His Caps team is near the upper 3rd of the league defensively in GAA with Sandin leading the dmen in +/-.

Over the last 7 games, when they went 5-1-1, Sandin's ice time is up, frequently 24-25 mins/game. I do not know why any NHL coach would assess a player as you have and then give him that much ice time. Doesn't make sense to me.

Those two coaches cannot have the same assessment of Sandin as you do

What makes more sense to me is much of what you observed applied to Sandin when he began his development. I saw it. I concur. But I wonder if he is suffering from the stigma of that past in the perception of some when in my eyes and apparently, in the eyes of his recent coaches, he put a bunch of that behind him and became a stronger, better player.

Now that he's getting the ice time, that he wasn't getting in Toronto, if he stays healthy, in a year or two, he's going to be a pretty good 24-25 year old dman. No Norris. No All Star berth. Probably not much PK. No bone crushing physical play. But a steady, offensive and defensive, cost effective dman who would probably crack the top 4 of most NHL rosters.

I agree that he's not the type of dman that the Leafs need now.
But I think he has addressed or reduced a number of issues in his game.
If he stays healthy, he'll be rewarded.

 

[L K]

I can't seem to find anything but are teams being given a taxi squad while they go to Europe?  Seems kind of absurd to not let teams carry an extra skater or two/a 3rd goalie given you can't really call someone up last minute for a game the next day.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I can't seem to find anything but are teams being given a taxi squad while they go to Europe?  Seems kind of absurd to not let teams carry an extra skater or two/a 3rd goalie given you can't really call someone up last minute for a game the next day.

Teams are definitely given an exemption to bring a 3rd goalie, the sens have already announced a roster move to call-up Mads Sogaard "under third goalie exemption status (for NHL games outside of North America)" for their trip. I thought there was something for skaters as well but actually doesn't look like it. Good thing the Leafs have cap room for spares now.

 

[herman]

https://x.com/DFour34/status/1723854319361954072
https://x.com/Aww37687941/status/1723827474021179860

 

[Bender]

Well... this is gonna be a boring couple of weeks boys!

 

[Highlander]

Well... this is gonna be a boring couple of weeks boys!

Ya and it going to snow for the first time out here on Wednesday.

 

[Frank E]

Well... this is gonna be a boring couple of weeks boys!

I say we go back to proposing ridiculous lopsided trades.