2023 Training Camp Thread

[herman]

Keefe likes having a top-6 line that can hang defensively against other top lines (I agree with him). Once upon a time, Tavares-Marner was very suitable for that, but once Tavares' skating started to wane (and Matthews' defense ascended), Matthews-Marner became the go-to.

Marner and Nylander together, while offensively electric, would mean Matthews would have to eat defensive matchups with significantly less offensive punch. With the likes of Knies and Jarnkrok available, that could work, but it feels like a waste of Matthews and it might push the boundaries of what those two wingers are capable of. Sort of mucks up the other lines too.

 

[rdowdall]

Keefe likes having a top-6 line that can hang defensively against other top lines (I agree with him). Once upon a time, Tavares-Marner was very suitable for that, but once Tavares' skating started to wane (and Matthews' defense ascended), Matthews-Marner became the go-to.

Marner and Nylander together, while offensively electric, would mean Matthews would have to eat defensive matchups with significantly less offensive punch. With the likes of Knies and Jarnkrok available, that could work, but it feels like a waste of Matthews and it might push the boundaries of what those two wingers are capable of. Sort of mucks up the other lines too.

I see the worry, but I think Knies and Bertuzzi give that Matthews line a different look.  They are more Legion of Doom like as they are all big and skilled.  On paper that is a hard line to forecheck against.  I don't think Bertuzzi is that bad defensively either, but yes the line doesn't really play to maximizing Matthews shooting skillset.  However, the tradeoff is that you get a more electric second line that is fairly responsible defensively by putting Marner and Nylander together.  I mean if Nylander at center works, you could move Tavares to the wing, but the problem there is that I don't think Tavares plays well with Matthews, and Tavares and Nylander are a bit suspect defensively. 

 

[Joe S.]

I?m asking this genuinely. Can anyone give an example of a player, after 7 years in the NHL made the transition to a full time centre after never playing that position with any regularity?

 

[Guilt Trip]

I?m asking this genuinely. Can anyone give an example of a player, after 7 years in the NHL made the transition to a full time centre after never playing that position with any regularity?

Nylander was drafted as a centre. I don't know the accuracy but I read that Giroux, Zetterberg, Messier were all drafted as wingers...
Anyway it will be a challenge for Willy but he's played the position before. Hey Red Kelly went from D to centre...

 

[Frank E]

I?m asking this genuinely. Can anyone give an example of a player, after 7 years in the NHL made the transition to a full time centre after never playing that position with any regularity?

I was thinking the same thing.  It's not like he's a young guy anymore, but I can see all this trying it through camp and then 2 shifts into game 1 he's back on the wing.

 

[Frank E]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/why-maple-leafs-are-challenging-william-nylander-to-play-centre-in-contract-year/

In other news, McMann is injured.

 

[Zee]

I?m asking this genuinely. Can anyone give an example of a player, after 7 years in the NHL made the transition to a full time centre after never playing that position with any regularity?

I was thinking the same thing.  It's not like he's a young guy anymore, but I can see all this trying it through camp and then 2 shifts into game 1 he's back on the wing.

It's almost like they're trying to justify signing him to a bigger contract.  If he can play center, suddenly the big contract makes more sense as centers are more highly regarded than wingers.  He's a talented guy, I hope he can adequately pass as a center, the last big Swedish center we had was pretty good

 

[dappleganger]

I?m asking this genuinely. Can anyone give an example of a player, after 7 years in the NHL made the transition to a full time centre after never playing that position with any regularity?

I know Mats Sundin spent a lot of his time in Quebec as a winger and played some wing with the Leafs before transitioning as a full time center.

Brayden Schenn switched to Center from the wing in his age 26 season after being traded to St. Louis from Philadelphia. It can happen.

 

[cw]

I?m asking this genuinely. Can anyone give an example of a player, after 7 years in the NHL made the transition to a full time centre after never playing that position with any regularity?

Leafs took a pass on Red Kelly. Wings grabbed him. He played D for the Wings for 13 years. Won a Norris, some Lady Bings and four Cups
He didn't tell anyone why his game was off in 1959 season until after - he played on a broken ankle.
Wings were ticked off over that and tried to trade him to the Rangers. He declined - said he'd retire.
Imlach picked him up and persuaded him to switch to centre. He won another Lady Bing and four more Cups as a centre for the Leafs.

So it wouldn't be the first time it worked out if Nylander can make the adjustment.

Nylander was drafted as a centre and had played some centre in the AHL.

 

[cabber24]

https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/1704518601934319904

Mirtle came to roughly the same conclusion as me but I think it's very unlikely that a) Robertson makes the team out of camp, b) Nylander gets put a C between two below average defensive wingers and c) Jarnkrok gets stuck on the 4th line.

Nylander in a contract year will have a cow if he's playing behind 2nd line minutes.

The Nylander line might just be the second line. I think it's better than the Tavares line going from what lines Mirtle is presenting.

 

[Joe S.]

Thanks for the responses. If anything I?m still seeing this as a long shot. I?m with Frank, I don?t think this lasts into the regular season.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's a long shot but I mean there's no exactly much downside here. I'll sure have egg on my face if I'm wrong but I don't see this team struggling to get a playoff spot, so some early season experimentation isn't a bad idea. If Nylander doesn't work there I hope they give Domi a shot at C next instead of defaulting back to Kampf.

 

[Frank E]

It's a long shot but I mean there's no exactly much downside here. I'll sure have egg on my face if I'm wrong but I don't see this team struggling to get a playoff spot, so some early season experimentation isn't a bad idea. If Nylander doesn't work there I hope they give Domi a shot at C next instead of defaulting back to Kampf.

In theory, they should have time to experiment with this...but then you're reminded that this is Toronto and the press will assassinate the entire coaching staff and new GM, and Shanahan because it's his fault too, after 2 lousy losses combined with Nylander struggling. 

 

[cabber24]

It's a long shot but I mean there's no exactly much downside here. I'll sure have egg on my face if I'm wrong but I don't see this team struggling to get a playoff spot, so some early season experimentation isn't a bad idea. If Nylander doesn't work there I hope they give Domi a shot at C next instead of defaulting back to Kampf.

I am hoping it works. We need a second-line center long-term with Tavares's contract expiring and his age. To fit Marnier/Matthew/Nylander on the same team we probably need two of them playing center.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's a long shot but I mean there's no exactly much downside here. I'll sure have egg on my face if I'm wrong but I don't see this team struggling to get a playoff spot, so some early season experimentation isn't a bad idea. If Nylander doesn't work there I hope they give Domi a shot at C next instead of defaulting back to Kampf.

In theory, they should have time to experiment with this...but then you're reminded that this is Toronto and the press will assassinate the entire coaching staff and new GM, and Shanahan because it's his fault too, after 2 lousy losses combined with Nylander struggling. 

Fair, although that could happen regardless of where Nylander plays.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Do we really want Tavares or Nylander and their combined 76 goals playing 3rd line minutes?

 

[Frank E]

Do we really want Tavares or Nylander and their combined 76 goals playing 3rd line minutes?

Something went really really right for the Leafs' new guys if they could afford to do that.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Do we really want Tavares or Nylander and their combined 76 goals playing 3rd line minutes?

Last season Tavares, who played strictly on the 2nd line, averaged 13:16 in ice-time at 5-on-5. Engvall, who played strictly 3rd line, averaged 11:27 at 5-on-5. So the gap there isn't exactly enormous. And it would likely be even smaller if Nylander was at "3C" (or 2bC) since Keefe would almost certainly still give him extra minutes say after successful penalty kills or late in periods/games.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Do we really want Tavares or Nylander and their combined 76 goals playing 3rd line minutes?

Last season Tavares, who played strictly on the 2nd line, averaged 13:16 in ice-time at 5-on-5. Engvall, who played strictly 3rd line, averaged 11:27 at 5-on-5. So the gap there isn't exactly enormous. And it would likely be even smaller if Nylander was at "3C" (or 2bC) since Keefe would almost certainly still give him extra minutes say after successful penalty kills or late in periods/games.

OK. I'll frame it another way. Do we think Tavares puts up 36 goals playing with Jarnkrok and whomever else is going to be on the 3rd line? Do we think Nylander puts up 40 with similar talent on his wings?

I get that Tavares is slowing and it may be time to have him on the wing. I'm not really fond of splitting them though.

 

[Frank E]

https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1704876419187130527


https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1704911784963178864