AA leaving?

[TimKerr]

Just a thought experiment, it seems that even if the Jays won the World Series AA would have still been leaving. The decision to give the Shapiro the final decision on personnel decisions was made back when he was hired and I don't see Rogers ever going back on that deal.

Thoughts?

 

[Kin]

Just a thought experiment, it seems that even if the Jays won the World Series AA would have still been leaving. The decision to give the Shapiro the final decision on personnel decisions was made back when he was hired and I don't see Rogers ever going back on that deal.

Thoughts?

Where are you getting that Shapiro has final decision on personnel matters?

 

[TimKerr]

Just a thought experiment, it seems that even if the Jays won the World Series AA would have still been leaving. The decision to give the Shapiro the final decision on personnel decisions was made back when he was hired and I don't see Rogers ever going back on that deal.

Thoughts?

Where are you getting that Shapiro has final decision on personnel matters?

I saw this story which quotes Jon Morosi saying as much.
http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/867641

Then I see that Rogers has come out and said that AA's job wouldn't have changed. So obviously conflicting reports.

But I have to infer that one of the reasons AA left was that he wouldn't have the same level of autonomy he had when Beeston was in charge.

 

[Kin]

But I have to infer that one of the reasons AA left was that he wouldn't have the same level of autonomy he had when Beeston was in charge.

Well, that, or Anthopolous didn't feel comfortable having the same arrangement with Shapiro that he did with Beeston. The often mentioned 5 year limit the Jays were said to have on contracts was said to come from Beeston, not Anthopolous, so it's not like AA had free rein before either.

Shapiro may not want to be as rubber a stamp on individual moves as Beeston may have been but who is providing the oversight can matter as much as whether or not there is oversight.

 

[TimKerr]

But I have to infer that one of the reasons AA left was that he wouldn't have the same level of autonomy he had when Beeston was in charge.

Well, that, or Anthopolous didn't feel comfortable having the same arrangement with Shapiro that he did with Beeston. The often mentioned 5 year limit the Jays were said to have on contracts was said to come from Beeston, not Anthopolous, so it's not like AA had free rein before either.

Shapiro may not want to be as rubber a stamp on individual moves as Beeston may have been but who is providing the oversight can matter as much as whether or not there is oversight.

That may be true but then I think he would have announced right away that he wasn't coming back. It wasn't as if Shapiro being hired was much of a surprise.

Nonetheless, I am not necessarily upset that he is leaving. Yes he made some great trades for this run, but we aren't in a better position than the Cubs, Mets or Royals, especially if Price doesn't re-sign. Then the year after when Bautista and Encarnacion are likely gone what are we then?

 

[Kin]

That may be true but then I think he would have announced right away that he wasn't coming back. It wasn't as if Shapiro being hired was much of a surprise.

Except I'm sure he didn't want the GM situation to be a distraction to the club in the middle of the pennant race. Not to mention that when Shapiro was hired AA was in a fundamentally different situation where his being offered a contract was probably up in the air(if they missed the playoffs, for instance, he probably is gone anyway).

Additionally, there's no way to know when the exact parameters of the situation going forward were made clear. Shapiro being hired may have been broadly known but what role Shaprio wanted in the baseball operations may not have been.

Nonetheless, I am not necessarily upset that he is leaving. Yes he made some great trades for this run, but we aren't in a better position than the Cubs, Mets or Royals, especially if Price doesn't re-sign. Then the year after when Bautista and Encarnacion are likely gone what are we then?

I broadly agree with this.

 

[Joe S.]

I'm reaching here but I think anthopolous was insulted or had aspirations to be the president and making Lavaca the gm...

I don't think this is about autonomy... I think that as soon as Shapiro was hired he'd made up his mind that he was leaving.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Tony LeCava is reportedly to be named the new GM.

 

[L K]

Tony LeCava is reportedly to be named the new GM.

He earned it.  Interviewed for a lot of jobs.  I'm glad there is some stability from the previous management group.

 

[herman]

Tony LeCava is reportedly to be named the new GM.

He earned it.  Interviewed for a lot of jobs.  I'm glad there is some stability from the previous management group.

This is the most positive outcome to rise out of the tire fire that was AA's exit.

As L K said, there's some continuity for the existing management team, as well as familiarity with Shapiro from their Cleveland days.

 

[dappleganger]

Just a thought experiment, it seems that even if the Jays won the World Series AA would have still been leaving. The decision to give the Shapiro the final decision on personnel decisions was made back when he was hired and I don't see Rogers ever going back on that deal.

Thoughts?

Where are you getting that Shapiro has final decision on personnel matters?

I saw this story which quotes Jon Morosi saying as much.
http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/867641

Then I see that Rogers has come out and said that AA's job wouldn't have changed. So obviously conflicting reports.

But I have to infer that one of the reasons AA left was that he wouldn't have the same level of autonomy he had when Beeston was in charge.

I think the better question is whether Shapiro's job description is the same as Paul Beeston's was.

 

[Kin]

Good decision, especially considering that the part of the job that AA excelled at, making big acquisitions, probably won't be a huge part of the job going forward.

 

[L K]

Gibbons and the coaching staff will be back next year.  Shapiro offered AA a 1-year deal + option.

 

[dappleganger]

Nik, sorry for the late response, Rogers offered Shapiro control to make final decisions on players whilst AA was still the man doing that and then AA pulls off some major trades and runs up millions and millions in extra dollars for the Rogers Empire.

And again, the narrative that AA pulled these trades out of nowhere is just straight up hogwash. He made those trades because he was willing to part with a level of prospect that other teams weren't. Moves that necessitate that the team drastically increase payroll in the near future or make significant sacrifices to the batting line-up in order to fill out the pitching staff.

I think that statement is a little disingenuous. AA built up a prospect pool, and had the level of prospect that other teams wanted, to make those trades. AA deserves credit for that.

 

[Kin]

I think that statement is a little disingenuous. AA built up a prospect pool, and had the level of prospect that other teams wanted, to make those trades. AA deserves credit for that.

Except all teams have good prospects. The Yankees had good prospects that were rumoured to be the cost if they wanted to make a play for Price, players like Judge and Severino, and they decided not to pursue that and keep their younger players. AA didn't. That's the difference.

The issue is one of prospect depth. Did AA build a system with good depth? Sorta. Baseball America had them as having the 10th best farm system in baseball this year. Is that a particularly good result after 5 years of not making the playoffs?

It's ok. It's good, not great. Which ultimately should be AA's epitaph as Blue jays GM.

 

[Joe S.]

Gibbons and the coaching staff will be back next year.  Shapiro offered AA a 1-year deal + option.

This is different than the Rogers offer?

 

[dappleganger]

Except all teams have good prospects. The Yankees had good prospects that were rumoured to be the cost if they wanted to make a play for Price, players like Judge and Severino, and they decided not to pursue that and keep their younger players. AA didn't. That's the difference.

And the Yankees lost the AL East with a 7 game lead at the  trade deadline. That's the difference. Yankees were rated as having the 18th best farm system as per Baseball America and didn't have the depth to make the kind of moves the Jays did at the deadline.

Yankees did this year what the Jays did in 2014 at the trade deadline, stood pat. Timing wasn't right for them this year.

Out of Baseball America's list of the Jays top ten prospects (which didn't include Marcus Stroman), the Jays traded 3 of them. Two of those prospects brought in Troy Tulowitzki while getting out from under Jose Reyes' contract. To get quality you have to give up quality. I went to Dunedin to watch Jeff Hoffman pitch, and he is the real deal. Jays are going to miss him.

 

[Kin]

And the Yankees lost the AL East with a 7 game lead at the  trade deadline. That's the difference. Yankees were rated as having the 18th best farm system as per Baseball America and didn't have the depth to make the kind of moves the Jays did at the deadline.

They didn't have the depth to make the quantity of moves, no, but the individual moves are ones anyone could have made if they were willing to let go of a certain level of prospect. None of these moves, individually, couldn't have been made by another team.

And so the ultimate result is that the Yankees lost none of their top prospects and still made the playoffs. But, again, this isn't about the job Brian Cashman did, it's about the statement that those trades weren't strokes of brilliance but just AA willing to pay market prices.

Yankees did this year what the Jays did in 2014 at the trade deadline, stood pat. Timing wasn't right for them this year.

Well, except they still made the playoffs, unlike the Jays in 2014. And there's a pretty good chance someone like David Price is pitching for them next year regardless. 

Out of Baseball America's list of the Jays top ten prospects (which didn't include Marcus Stroman), the Jays traded 3 of them. Two of those prospects brought in Troy Tulowitzki while getting out from under Jose Reyes' contract. To get quality you have to give up quality. I went to Dunedin to watch Jeff Hoffman pitch, and he is the real deal. Jays are going to miss him.

7 of the 10 on that list aren't going to be in the minor league system next year(including 1-5). So the organization is almost certainly substantially weaker.

But at this point I'm not even sure what point you're making. AA paid a high price and brought in some good players. That's not being disputed. The issue is, again, whether or not these trades were actually good value and whether or not the salary they represent leaves the team with a lot of options going forward while maintaining competitiveness.

And the answer to that? I think AA did, overall, a good job. I just don't buy into the Steve Simmons histrionics that he did such a good job that they should have given him whatever he wanted to stay. They offered him a fair contract and fair circumstances given what he left behind and he said no. I'm not going to cry about that.

 

[dappleganger]

I think AA did, overall, a good job.

I agree Nik.

 

[Kin]

I agree Nik.

Then you should probably stop acting like the Blue Jays just fired the second coming of John McGraw.