Federal Election 2019

[Frank E]

Peter MacKay, you're up.

You think he'll have the leg up over Ford or Kenney?

I think Ford and Kenney are a little busy with their first term as Premiers.

MacKay has 17 years experience in the HOC, and held some very prominent cabinet positions.  I think he's a smart guy, and he could appeal to a broader audience than Kenney or, goodness forbid, Ford.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Peter MacKay, you're up.

Rona Ambrose pls.

 

[Frank E]

Peter MacKay, you're up.

Rona Ambrose pls.

I like her as well. 

 

[Zee]

This comment made me laugh


https://twitter.com/matttomic/status/1205176140136103937

 

[Andy007]

Huh, I guess being an insurance broker doesn't pay as well as I'd assumed.

Or that having a degree in criminology gives one a sense of what constitutes a crime...

 

[groundskeeper willie]

Peter MacKay, you're up.

Rona Ambrose pls.

I like her as well.

I just hope this time they'll finally put up a true red Tory, whoever it is. As a centralist voting options in this country are slim and I refuse to vote for a far right winger

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/AndrewScheer/status/1184809125638791168

 

[Kin]

I just hope this time they'll finally put up a true red Tory, whoever it is. As a centralist voting options in this country are slim and I refuse to vote for a far right winger

All due respect that sounds like less of an issue with who the Tories nominate and more that you want the centre of this country to be somewhere else politically. The Liberals are, effectively, the centre.

It's why I'm so confused by seeing people on Twitter saying the Conservatives need to choose someone who's socially liberal but fiscally conservative. To me, that seems like such an outdated sense of politics in this country. I really don't think there are a lot of votes to be picked up by someone with right wing fiscal and environmental policies but who's ok with gay people.

 

[Bates]

I just hope this time they'll finally put up a true red Tory, whoever it is. As a centralist voting options in this country are slim and I refuse to vote for a far right winger

All due respect that sounds like less of an issue with who the Tories nominate and more that you want the centre of this country to be somewhere else politically. The Liberals are, effectively, the centre.

It's why I'm so confused by seeing people on Twitter saying the Conservatives need to choose someone who's socially liberal but fiscally conservative. To me, that seems like such an outdated sense of politics in this country. I really don't think there are a lot of votes to be picked up by someone with right wing fiscal and environmental policies but who's ok with gay people.

I live in the most Conservative Province in the Country and I don't recall ever talking to anyone who has any issue with gay people have absolute equality. It's such a minority of folks who think that way.

 

[groundskeeper willie]

I just hope this time they'll finally put up a true red Tory, whoever it is. As a centralist voting options in this country are slim and I refuse to vote for a far right winger

All due respect that sounds like less of an issue with who the Tories nominate and more that you want the centre of this country to be somewhere else politically. The Liberals are, effectively, the centre.

It's why I'm so confused by seeing people on Twitter saying the Conservatives need to choose someone who's socially liberal but fiscally conservative. To me, that seems like such an outdated sense of politics in this country. I really don't think there are a lot of votes to be picked up by someone with right wing fiscal and environmental policies but who's ok with gay people.

That may be that there's not enough votes for them to bother, but there's a pretty big chasm between the liberals and the conservatives over the last twenty years. I know you're a left winger (which I'm not criticizing) so maybe you don't notice the nuances as much, but since Harper the moderate conservative voice has effectively been killed.

Heck even true conservatism has died in this country lately and been replaced by populism. The only way to vote right of the liberals is to support obvious bigotry

 

[Kin]

I live in the most Conservative Province in the Country and I don't recall ever talking to anyone who has any issue with gay people have absolute equality. It's such a minority of folks who think that way.

That's sort of my point. A politician marching in a pride parade the way they'd show up to Chinese New Year or a synagogue on Channukah isn't winning them any points which is why it was such an own goal that Scheer wouldn't even do that. It's like thinking that someone being ok with interracial marriage in the 90's made them "socially liberal".

More and more there is no difference between social issues and fiscal ones. Climate Change is both. Health care is both. Housing and the cost of living is both. Those were the three biggest issues for voters this election and unless there's actual movement on the part of the Conservative party there policy wise, they're going to have similar problems in the future.

 

[Bates]

I live in the most Conservative Province in the Country and I don't recall ever talking to anyone who has any issue with gay people have absolute equality. It's such a minority of folks who think that way.

That's sort of my point. A politician marching in a pride parade the way they'd show up to Chinese New Year or a synagogue on Channukah isn't winning them any points which is why it was such an own goal that Scheer wouldn't even do that. It's like thinking that someone being ok with interracial marriage in the 90's made them "socially liberal".

More and more there is no difference between social issues and fiscal ones. Climate Change is both. Health care is both. Housing and the cost of living is both. Those were the three biggest issues for voters this election and unless there's actual movement on the part of the Conservative party there policy wise, they're going to have similar problems in the future.

But the Conservatives got more votes than any other party? People are mad at the hypocrisy on some issues. A good example is oil for the Prairies vs coal for BC. Building pipelines is akin to letting the devil in but leading the world in shipments of coal somehow goes unnoticed to the same folks who protest pipelines in the name of climate emergency?? Mention nuclear and they go nuclear. They expect SK and AB to shut down industry overnight rather than finding efficiencies to reduce our carbon footprint.

 

[Kin]

That may be that there's not enough votes for them to bother, but there's a pretty big chasm between the liberals and the conservatives over the last twenty years. I know you're a left winger (which I'm not criticizing) so maybe you don't notice the nuances as much, but since Harper the moderate conservative voice has effectively been killed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's no policy room between the Liberals and what Scheer was pushing as Conservative policy, what I'm saying is that it's not room in the middle. If we count the Bloc as on the Left of the Liberals then the "Left Wing" accounted for almost 30% of the vote and almost exactly carved the vote into three.

But that's only defining centrism mathematically. Objectively it's very hard to see how the Liberals don't qualify. So again, I do get that you think that playing to the hard right is no longer a viable strategy and the Conservatives should modify that and I think that's a fair and valid point of view electorally but I'm just not sure I'd call that centrist.

Because, personally, as someone who probably more accurately would say I'm socialist then Left Wing, I felt like all of the parties on the Left have been making a push for the middle ground. Even the NDP under Singh wasn't as to the left on a lot of things as, say, Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbyn's Labour. They were saying things like "Let's tax rich people a little more so we can have pharmacare and dental care like most other countries with socialized health care" and not "Let's renationalize the oil fields and impose a maximum wage".

Heck even true conservatism has died in this country lately and been replaced by populism. The only way to vote right of the liberals is to support obvious bigotry

Well, but that raises an interesting philosophical question. If a country has a long stretch of a progressive social policy like socialized medicine, at what point does maintaining it become an act of conservatism in the classical sense?

 

[Kin]

But the Conservatives got more votes than any other party?

Sure, by virtue of the fact that there aren't any real other parties on the right and the vote to the left of them was split 4 ways. Running against a not very popular Prime Minister dealing with various scandals, they got 34.4% of the vote. The "Left" got 63%. If the country went with proportional representation the Liberals would lose seats, sure, but so would the Conservatives. Right now it's Green/NDP voters who are underrepresented in the Commons.

Unless Conservatives figure out a way to meaningfully close that gap, they'll never form another government, let alone have anything close to a real democratic mandate.

 

[Bates]

But the Conservatives got more votes than any other party?

Sure, by virtue of the fact that there aren't any real other parties on the right and the vote to the left of them was split 4 ways. Running against a not very popular Prime Minister dealing with various scandals, they got 34.4% of the vote. The "Left" got 63%. If the country went with proportional representation the Liberals would lose seats, sure, but so would the Conservatives. Right now it's Green/NDP voters who are underrepresented in the Commons.

Unless Conservatives figure out a way to meaningfully close that gap, they'll never form another government, let alone have anything close to a real democratic mandate.

I suspect if the Conservatives had a better Leader last time around it would have been a closer ending by seat numbers. Not sure I put the Bloc with either side??

 

[groundskeeper willie]

That may be that there's not enough votes for them to bother, but there's a pretty big chasm between the liberals and the conservatives over the last twenty years. I know you're a left winger (which I'm not criticizing) so maybe you don't notice the nuances as much, but since Harper the moderate conservative voice has effectively been killed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's no policy room between the Liberals and what Scheer was pushing as Conservative policy, what I'm saying is that it's not room in the middle. If we count the Bloc as on the Left of the Liberals then the "Left Wing" accounted for almost 30% of the vote and almost exactly carved the vote into three.

But that's only defining centrism mathematically. Objectively it's very hard to see how the Liberals don't qualify. So again, I do get that you think that playing to the hard right is no longer a viable strategy and the Conservatives should modify that and I think that's a fair and valid point of view electorally but I'm just not sure I'd call that centrist.

Because, personally, as someone who probably more accurately would say I'm socialist then Left Wing, I felt like all of the parties on the Left have been making a push for the middle ground. Even the NDP under Singh wasn't as to the left on a lot of things as, say, Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbyn's Labour. They were saying things like "Let's tax rich people a little more so we can have pharmacare and dental care like most other countries with socialized health care" and not "Let's renationalize the oil fields and impose a maximum wage".

Heck even true conservatism has died in this country lately and been replaced by populism. The only way to vote right of the liberals is to support obvious bigotry

Well, but that raises an interesting philosophical question. If a country has a long stretch of a progressive social policy like socialized medicine, at what point does maintaining it become an act of conservatism in the classical sense?

I think we're maybe having a slightly different discussion than each other. I'm not saying I want to vote conservative, but I want them to at least be an option I can consider. As it stands I'm forced to instantly dismiss them for obvious reasons.

I've voted for all three major parties at various points, but to me it seems like the liberals and NDP are moving closer together and the conservatives are running as fast as they can in the other direction. As a centralist I can't in any way justify voting conservative (federally or provincially) they way things have been lately. A red Tory can admit climate change is real the way a far right winger can't. A red Tory can see that there are times to spend money now to save more in the future or that a higher minimum wage can actually benefit the economy instead of just yelling about lowering taxes and finding scapegoats for every problem instead of solutions.

As for your last point, I agree on the whole. Modern United States-style conservatism is a major problem and it goes back to my original point that there needs to be a moderate right wing option that views certain parts of society like socialized health care as a fundamental Canadian institution that needs to be protected instead of this money above all mentality that exists now

 

[Kin]

I suspect if the Conservatives had a better Leader last time around it would have been a closer ending by seat numbers.

And likewise the Liberals probably feel that if they weren't running a guy involved in an ethics scandal who had a bunch of embarrassing old photos released during the election they'd have done better.

Either way, the real issue there is whether a "better" Leader means someone with more charisma/less baggage or with better policy ideas.

Not sure I put the Bloc with either side??

I share those reservations about the party but there's pretty solid evidence that the majority of the votes the Bloc won this time were from people who voted NDP or Liberal last time so their voters are reliably on the left, even if the party is a weird mishmash.

 

[Kin]

I think we're maybe having a slightly different discussion than each other. I'm not saying I want to vote conservative, but I want them to at least be an option I can consider. As it stands I'm forced to instantly dismiss them for obvious reasons.

I've voted for all three major parties at various points, but to me it seems like the liberals and NDP are moving closer together and the conservatives are running as fast as they can in the other direction. As a centralist I can't in any way justify voting conservative (federally or provincially) they way things have been lately. A red Tory can admit climate change is real the way a far right winger can't. A red Tory can see that there are times to spend money now to save more in the future or that a higher minimum wage can actually benefit the economy instead of just yelling about lowering taxes and finding scapegoats for every problem instead of solutions.

I see what you're saying but what I guess I'm confused about is if you're looking for a party that acknowledges climate change is a real problem, sees the wisdom in deficit spending and having a living minimum wage...isn't that basically just the Liberals?

 

[groundskeeper willie]

I think we're maybe having a slightly different discussion than each other. I'm not saying I want to vote conservative, but I want them to at least be an option I can consider. As it stands I'm forced to instantly dismiss them for obvious reasons.

I've voted for all three major parties at various points, but to me it seems like the liberals and NDP are moving closer together and the conservatives are running as fast as they can in the other direction. As a centralist I can't in any way justify voting conservative (federally or provincially) they way things have been lately. A red Tory can admit climate change is real the way a far right winger can't. A red Tory can see that there are times to spend money now to save more in the future or that a higher minimum wage can actually benefit the economy instead of just yelling about lowering taxes and finding scapegoats for every problem instead of solutions.

I see what you're saying but what I guess I'm confused about is if you're looking for a party that acknowledges climate change is a real problem, sees the wisdom in deficit spending and having a living minimum wage...isn't that basically just the Liberals?

That's where the nuances I was talking about come in. A liberal will spend more now in situations that a red Tory wouldn't thinking it's better in the long run for example. Add that to the liberals moving closer to the NDP as I said and it can make them a less than ideal option for a centralist.

Let me try and explain why I think the liberals are left of centre this way. Picture a teeter totter. The liberals are a little left of the fulcrum, the NDP are half way down the arm and the greens are sitting in the left hand seat. The conservative are on the right past the seat, barely hanging on to the edge with their fingertips. Yes the liberals and NDP combine for the majority of votes but the conservatives are so much further right then they are left that the whole thing is still balanced.

 

[dappleganger]

I like Michael Chong to run again for the Conservative leadership.