Luongo

[OldTimeHockey]

I highly disagree. Scrivens is a better goalie than Gustavsson and he was signed. Why wouldn't  a dirt cheap option in Scrivens be picked up for insurance?

Because, he can't be picked up as insurance. If a team picks him up, they have to keep him on their NHL roster. They'd either want him as their back-up or they'd be willing to carry 3 goalies. To send him to the AHL, they'd have to put him back on waivers, in which case, they Leafs would almost certainly reclaim him. Dozens of equally or more talented goalies have been placed on waivers at the end of training camp over the past few seasons and cleared. There's no reason to believe Scrivens - an older, unproven goalie prospect - wouldn't as well.

That is something that didn't even enter my mind and makes complete sense busta.

I guess he probably would clear. Reentry may be a different story..but who knows.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm not even remotely convinced Scrivens is better than Gustavsson. I think he's got potential to be better, but I'd have to see some NHL success out of Scrivens first.

Have you seen NHL success out of Gustavsson? I don't think so. We've seen 5 or 6 game stretches of semi okay hockey than a return to mediocrity. We are still waiting to see all the 'potential' that Gustavsson was suppose to have as well.

Scrivens is a better positional goalie with a cool personality. Two things that Gustavsson severely lacks.
[/quote]

I've absolutely seen some success from Gustavsson, but thanks for answering for me anyway. I've seen some mediocre games from him, but I've also seen him single-handedly defeat the Rangers or keep the leafs in games they shouldn't have been in. I think he's back up goalie in this league.

I've seen Scrivens dominate in the AHL and have seen him play a couple of good and a couple of very bad games in the NHL.

I truly hope Scrivens develops into a good NHL starter, but I'm reserving judgement until he actually wins some games there.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I've absolutely seen some success from Gustavsson, but thanks for answering for me anyway. I've seen some mediocre games from him, but I've also seen him single-handedly defeat the Rangers or keep the leafs in games they shouldn't have been in. I think he's back up goalie in this league.

I've seen Scrivens dominate in the AHL and have seen him play a couple of good and a couple of very bad games in the NHL.

I truly hope Scrivens develops into a good NHL starter, but I'm reserving judgement until he actually wins some games there.

I'm not 100% either Scrivens or Reimer ever become a legitimate NHL starter.

While Scrivens may only have a few starts in the league, you can't go on Gustavsson's larger sampling. Gustavsson has cost the Leafs as many games as he's 'won' for them. If going on a couple luke warm streaks deems success in the NHL I'd like a shot. I'm sure I could get it done for a few days.

I'm a big supporter of goaltenders in most cases(have been playing goalie and coaching them for 30 years). They receive a bad rap in most situations, and while I thoroughly enjoy Gustavsson's athletic ability, his positional play leaves much to be desired. When the goaltending coaches have attempted at fixing this he became inefficient in my books and reverted to his old play which leaves you with a goalie that makes a good save and then is so far out of position, he has no hope to make the next save.

Reimer on the other hand needs to be a hybrid goalie. He has some good athletic abilities but he needs to be sound positionally and play big. For most of his struggles last year, his athletic abilities disappeared and it seemed he was just trying to get in front of the puck. It's my personal opinion that it is either a by-product of the coaching(Allaire) or his injury. I'm hoping it was a combination of both and he can return to the way he was before.

With Scrivens, I see a solid positional goalie with good enough reflexes to get it done. He's never going to be top 15 in the league but I don't think Reimer will either.

Out of the 3 currently, I'd rank them in this order based on rank(if Gustavsson was with the Leafs)

1.Reimer
2.Gustavsson(would be back up based on amount of starts solely)
3.Scrivens

Man, think i just talked myself into agreeing with you.




And, again, this is just my opinion.

I feel like if things were to go how I invision them, Scrivens will replace Reimer as #1 on the depth chart(though really, neither are top 25 in the league).

 

[Redleaf]

I've absolutely seen some success from Gustavsson, but thanks for answering for me anyway. I've seen some mediocre games from him, but I've also seen him single-handedly defeat the Rangers or keep the leafs in games they shouldn't have been in. I think he's back up goalie in this league.

I've seen Scrivens dominate in the AHL and have seen him play a couple of good and a couple of very bad games in the NHL.

I truly hope Scrivens develops into a good NHL starter, but I'm reserving judgement until he actually wins some games there.

I'm not 100% either Scrivens or Reimer ever become a legitimate NHL starter.

While Scrivens may only have a few starts in the league, you can't go on Gustavsson's larger sampling. Gustavsson has cost the Leafs as many games as he's 'won' for them. If going on a couple luke warm streaks deems success in the NHL I'd like a shot. I'm sure I could get it done for a few days.

I'm a big supporter of goaltenders in most cases(have been playing goalie and coaching them for 30 years). They receive a bad rap in most situations, and while I thoroughly enjoy Gustavsson's athletic ability, his positional play leaves much to be desired. When the goaltending coaches have attempted at fixing this he became inefficient in my books and reverted to his old play which leaves you with a goalie that makes a good save and then is so far out of position, he has no hope to make the next save.

Reimer on the other hand needs to be a hybrid goalie. He has some good athletic abilities but he needs to be sound positionally and play big. For most of his struggles last year, his athletic abilities disappeared and it seemed he was just trying to get in front of the puck. It's my personal opinion that it is either a by-product of the coaching(Allaire) or his injury. I'm hoping it was a combination of both and he can return to the way he was before.

With Scrivens, I see a solid positional goalie with good enough reflexes to get it done. He's never going to be top 15 in the league but I don't think Reimer will either.

Out of the 3 currently, I'd rank them in this order based on rank(if Gustavsson was with the Leafs)

1.Reimer
2.Gustavsson(would be back up based on amount of starts solely)
3.Scrivens

Man, think i just talked myself into agreeing with you.




And, again, this is just my opinion.

I feel like if things were to go how I invision them, Scrivens will replace Reimer as #1 on the depth chart(though really, neither are top 25 in the league).

It think if Reimer can find his form of two seasons ago, he will clearly be the Leafs number one goalie this season. Hopefully last year's setback will be attributed to his injury, and he can now move forward. I still hope Luongo is brought in just I case I'm wrong. This team needs to find some success soon!

 

[moon111]

I've absolutely seen some success from Gustavsson, but thanks for answering for me anyway. I've seen some mediocre games from him, but I've also seen him single-handedly defeat the Rangers or keep the leafs in games they shouldn't have been in. I think he's back up goalie in this league.

I've seen Scrivens dominate in the AHL and have seen him play a couple of good and a couple of very bad games in the NHL.

I truly hope Scrivens develops into a good NHL starter, but I'm reserving judgement until he actually wins some games there.

I'm not 100% either Scrivens or Reimer ever become a legitimate NHL starter.

While Scrivens may only have a few starts in the league, you can't go on Gustavsson's larger sampling. Gustavsson has cost the Leafs as many games as he's 'won' for them. If going on a couple luke warm streaks deems success in the NHL I'd like a shot. I'm sure I could get it done for a few days.

I'm a big supporter of goaltenders in most cases(have been playing goalie and coaching them for 30 years). They receive a bad rap in most situations, and while I thoroughly enjoy Gustavsson's athletic ability, his positional play leaves much to be desired. When the goaltending coaches have attempted at fixing this he became inefficient in my books and reverted to his old play which leaves you with a goalie that makes a good save and then is so far out of position, he has no hope to make the next save.

Reimer on the other hand needs to be a hybrid goalie. He has some good athletic abilities but he needs to be sound positionally and play big. For most of his struggles last year, his athletic abilities disappeared and it seemed he was just trying to get in front of the puck. It's my personal opinion that it is either a by-product of the coaching(Allaire) or his injury. I'm hoping it was a combination of both and he can return to the way he was before.

With Scrivens, I see a solid positional goalie with good enough reflexes to get it done. He's never going to be top 15 in the league but I don't think Reimer will either.

Out of the 3 currently, I'd rank them in this order based on rank(if Gustavsson was with the Leafs)

1.Reimer
2.Gustavsson(would be back up based on amount of starts solely)
3.Scrivens

Man, think i just talked myself into agreeing with you.




And, again, this is just my opinion.

I feel like if things were to go how I invision them, Scrivens will replace Reimer as #1 on the depth chart(though really, neither are top 25 in the league).

I think Toronto has coughed up way too many odd-man rushes, etc.  If the Leafs were to clamp down and play an awesome defensive system, do you think it would help one goalie more then the next.  For example, Grant Fuhr was awesome in a wide-open system that other goalies might of struggled in.  I'm not sure Brodeur has ever played a single game that was remotely as close. 

I got a chance to stand behind Gustavsson when the Leafs came to C.F.B. Trenton.  Being able to watch his face, it seemed more stressed then focused.  Maybe he was feeling unnatural(to him) trying to play better positionally.  Maybe he'll find a good drug-dealer and get all Grant Fuhr in Detroit.

 

[Corn Flake]

I highly disagree. Scrivens is a better goalie than Gustavsson and he was signed. Why wouldn't  a dirt cheap option in Scrivens be picked up for insurance?

Because, he can't be picked up as insurance. If a team picks him up, they have to keep him on their NHL roster. They'd either want him as their back-up or they'd be willing to carry 3 goalies. To send him to the AHL, they'd have to put him back on waivers, in which case, they Leafs would almost certainly reclaim him. Dozens of equally or more talented goalies have been placed on waivers at the end of training camp over the past few seasons and cleared. There's no reason to believe Scrivens - an older, unproven goalie prospect - wouldn't as well.

That is something that didn't even enter my mind and makes complete sense busta.

I guess he probably would clear. Reentry may be a different story..but who knows.

Busta sold me on this idea some time ago. He's right. 

Scrivens likely stays in the org unless some team has a freak injury right at the end of camp around the time of waivers and Scrivens just happens to be the best option out there at the time. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I've absolutely seen some success from Gustavsson, but thanks for answering for me anyway. I've seen some mediocre games from him, but I've also seen him single-handedly defeat the Rangers or keep the leafs in games they shouldn't have been in. I think he's back up goalie in this league.

I've seen Scrivens dominate in the AHL and have seen him play a couple of good and a couple of very bad games in the NHL.

I truly hope Scrivens develops into a good NHL starter, but I'm reserving judgement until he actually wins some games there.

I'm not 100% either Scrivens or Reimer ever become a legitimate NHL starter.

While Scrivens may only have a few starts in the league, you can't go on Gustavsson's larger sampling. Gustavsson has cost the Leafs as many games as he's 'won' for them. If going on a couple luke warm streaks deems success in the NHL I'd like a shot. I'm sure I could get it done for a few days.

I'm a big supporter of goaltenders in most cases(have been playing goalie and coaching them for 30 years). They receive a bad rap in most situations, and while I thoroughly enjoy Gustavsson's athletic ability, his positional play leaves much to be desired. When the goaltending coaches have attempted at fixing this he became inefficient in my books and reverted to his old play which leaves you with a goalie that makes a good save and then is so far out of position, he has no hope to make the next save.

Reimer on the other hand needs to be a hybrid goalie. He has some good athletic abilities but he needs to be sound positionally and play big. For most of his struggles last year, his athletic abilities disappeared and it seemed he was just trying to get in front of the puck. It's my personal opinion that it is either a by-product of the coaching(Allaire) or his injury. I'm hoping it was a combination of both and he can return to the way he was before.

With Scrivens, I see a solid positional goalie with good enough reflexes to get it done. He's never going to be top 15 in the league but I don't think Reimer will either.

Out of the 3 currently, I'd rank them in this order based on rank(if Gustavsson was with the Leafs)

1.Reimer
2.Gustavsson(would be back up based on amount of starts solely)
3.Scrivens

Man, think i just talked myself into agreeing with you.




And, again, this is just my opinion.

I feel like if things were to go how I invision them, Scrivens will replace Reimer as #1 on the depth chart(though really, neither are top 25 in the league).

I think Toronto has coughed up way too many odd-man rushes, etc.  If the Leafs were to clamp down and play an awesome defensive system, do you think it would help one goalie more then the next.  For example, Grant Fuhr was awesome in a wide-open system that other goalies might of struggled in.  I'm not sure Brodeur has ever played a single game that was remotely as close. 

I got a chance to stand behind Gustavsson when the Leafs came to C.F.B. Trenton.  Being able to watch his face, it seemed more stressed then focused.  Maybe he was feeling unnatural(to him) trying to play better positionally.  Maybe he'll find a good drug-dealer and get all Grant Fuhr in Detroit.

And that's exactly my point. It's also something that I've been stressing from the times of Toskala. The goalies in Toronto have been hurt by a team that gives up horrendous scoring chances. Even when they keep the shots down, they all seem to be off of horrible give aways and the such...

No one is going to give a goalie from Toronto over the last 5 seasons an award, but they way they've all been hung out to dry on a nightly basis is a sad state of affairs.

My biggest issues with the tending have been the horrible goals at the wrong times(first five minutes/last five minutes)...Those goals make or break a team.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I think Toronto has coughed up way too many odd-man rushes, etc.  If the Leafs were to clamp down and play an awesome defensive system, do you think it would help one goalie more then the next.  For example, Grant Fuhr was awesome in a wide-open system that other goalies might of struggled in.  I'm not sure Brodeur has ever played a single game that was remotely as close. 

I got a chance to stand behind Gustavsson when the Leafs came to C.F.B. Trenton.  Being able to watch his face, it seemed more stressed then focused.  Maybe he was feeling unnatural(to him) trying to play better positionally.  Maybe he'll find a good drug-dealer and get all Grant Fuhr in Detroit.

And that's exactly my point. It's also something that I've been stressing from the times of Toskala. The goalies in Toronto have been hurt by a team that gives up horrendous scoring chances. Even when they keep the shots down, they all seem to be off of horrible give aways and the such...

No one is going to give a goalie from Toronto over the last 5 seasons an award, but they way they've all been hung out to dry on a nightly basis is a sad state of affairs.

My biggest issues with the tending have been the horrible goals at the wrong times(first five minutes/last five minutes)...Those goals make or break a team.

Wait just a second.

Your assessment (with which I concur BTW) is the most damning and succinct indictment of the Burke regime and its philosophy that I can imagine.

Needless to say it does the same thing to the mismanagement of JFJ but that is another matter.

Both BB and JFJ were building "from the goal line out " (JFJ) and "from the blueline out" (BB).

Now you flatly (and correctly, I say) assert that our defense is God awful.

If that is not basis enough after 4 plus years to kick Burke's keister as far as Cleveland, I do not know what it would take to do so.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I think Toronto has coughed up way too many odd-man rushes, etc.  If the Leafs were to clamp down and play an awesome defensive system, do you think it would help one goalie more then the next.  For example, Grant Fuhr was awesome in a wide-open system that other goalies might of struggled in.  I'm not sure Brodeur has ever played a single game that was remotely as close. 

I got a chance to stand behind Gustavsson when the Leafs came to C.F.B. Trenton.  Being able to watch his face, it seemed more stressed then focused.  Maybe he was feeling unnatural(to him) trying to play better positionally.  Maybe he'll find a good drug-dealer and get all Grant Fuhr in Detroit.

And that's exactly my point. It's also something that I've been stressing from the times of Toskala. The goalies in Toronto have been hurt by a team that gives up horrendous scoring chances. Even when they keep the shots down, they all seem to be off of horrible give aways and the such...

No one is going to give a goalie from Toronto over the last 5 seasons an award, but they way they've all been hung out to dry on a nightly basis is a sad state of affairs.

My biggest issues with the tending have been the horrible goals at the wrong times(first five minutes/last five minutes)...Those goals make or break a team.

Wait just a second.

Your assessment (with which I concur BTW) is the most damning and succinct indictment of the Burke regime and its philosophy that I can imagine.

Needless to say it does the same thing to the mismanagement of JFJ but that is another matter.

Both BB and JFJ were building "from the goal line out " (JFJ) and "from the blueline out" (BB).

Now you flatly (and correctly, I say) assert that our defense is God awful.

If that is not basis enough after 4 plus years to kick Burke's keister as far as Cleveland, I do not know what it would take to do so.

Well, like I've said, I've been a Burke supporter for most of his time with the team(that doesn't mean I agree with every move he's made). The last half season of this past year is where I started to swing in the other direction. If by Christmas, this team isn't in the top 8 in the east, he should get his walking papers. And to add insult to injury, he should be let go during his 'Christmas Trade Freeze'.

 

[Bullfrog]

And to add insult to injury, he should be let go during his 'Christmas Trade Freeze'.

What's the purpose of that? People's callousness never ceases to surprise me.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

What's the purpose of that? People's callousness never ceases to surprise me.

Yeah, I don't get why that is not seen as a good thing. I'm sure if you ask the players, they would say that they respect Burke for it.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, I don't get why that is not seen as a good thing.

I've thought about that and I think primarily it's because it implies a sort of lack of ruthlessness when it comes to the business of putting a team together. I'm not sold on it as a positive or a negative but I get why there are people out there who prefer the idea of a GM who would step over their own grandmother.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I've thought about that and I think primarily it's because it implies a sort of lack of ruthlessness when it comes to the business of putting a team together. I'm not sold on it as a positive or a negative but I get why there are people out there who prefer the idea of a GM who would step over their own grandmother.

But when you're courting players, you'd think this kind of behaviour would give Burke the upper hand. I mean, it's something for the players, not for Burke himself. In the end, I think it's good ethics and it is more than likely that it won't change.

 

[Kin]

But when you're courting players, you'd think this kind of behaviour would give Burke the upper hand.

Honestly? I wouldn't think that. Call me cynical but I think that usually that sort of thing comes down to money and term. Then there are things like location and the quality of the team and on and on before you would get to considerations like that.  Especially with an elite FA who, if they had any concerns about being traded, could just ask for a NTC.

In the end, I think it's good ethics and it is more than likely that it won't change.

That strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. There's nothing unethical about trading players in December. It also strikes me as a little arbitrary.

But I agree to some extent. I think it's further evidence of something I feel pretty strongly about. Regardless of what I think of the job Burke is doing in Toronto, everything I've seen of him has convinced me that he's a really good guy and, as a fan of the team, that's not meaningless to me. I would rather root for good guys than jerks.

That said, we all know what Leo Durocher said about nice guys and where they finish.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Honestly? I wouldn't think that. Call me cynical but I think that usually that sort of thing comes down to money and term. Then there are things like location and the quality of the team and on and on before you would get to considerations like that.  Especially with an elite FA who, if they had any concerns about being traded, could just ask for a NTC.

I suppose the players that only think in terms of money will be indifferent to that and not care about it. But the players that have families and or who have been traded at times when it wasn't right for their family would really appreciate something like that, especially if they are not players that would easily be able to negotiate a NTC.

That strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. There's nothing unethical about trading players in December. It also strikes me as a little arbitrary.

But I agree to some extent. I think it's further evidence of something I feel pretty strongly about. Regardless of what I think of the job Burke is doing in Toronto, everything I've seen of him has convinced me that he's a really good guy and, as a fan of the team, that's not meaningless to me. I would rather root for good guys than jerks.

Well, maybe ethical was the wrong word. I simply like that Burke thinks about his employee's needs when they play for him, opposed to a guy that could think about the business side and only that. We're dealing with people's lives here, not just commodities.

In the grand scheme of things, 10 days doesn't seem like it's something that would screw up what Burke wanted to accomplish anyways, it's just being a good manager and thinking about the people that work for him a little more than a GM that would trade a guy regardless of the situation.

 

[Kin]

I suppose the players that only think in terms of money will be indifferent to that and not care about it. But the players that have families and or who have been traded at times when it wasn't right for their family would really appreciate something like that, especially if they are not players that would easily be able to negotiate a NTC.

I don't think it's that neat a dichotomy. I think that lots of people will think it's nice but that there are lots and lots of other considerations that will trump it. Like, if you have a family, you probably want to sock away as much money from your playing career as you can. That doesn't mean you only care about money, just that money is an important factor in a decision. Likewise with the other considerations a free agent would probably put above that.

Well, maybe ethical was the wrong word. I simply like that Burke thinks about his employee's needs when they play for him, opposed to a guy that could think about the business side and only that. We're dealing with people's lives here, not just commodities.

In the grand scheme of things, 10 days doesn't seem like it's something that would screw up what Burke wanted to accomplish anyways, it's just being a good manager and thinking about the people that work for him a little more than a GM that would trade a guy regardless of the situation.

Well, like I said, I like that Burke's a nice guy too. I'm just not sold it has any positive impact. Like you kind of say, it's not that a big deal in terms of guys getting traded. It's ten days and, outside of that window, being traded is never easy on a player and getting dealt in that stretch isn't necessarily going to be harder than being dealt in, say, September or around Thanksgiving.

 

[Corn Flake]

And to add insult to injury, he should be let go during his 'Christmas Trade Freeze'.

What's the purpose of that? People's callousness never ceases to surprise me.

It's pretty sad sometimes, isn't it?

 

[Champ Kind]

But when you're courting players, you'd think this kind of behaviour would give Burke the upper hand.

Honestly? I wouldn't think that. Call me cynical but I think that usually that sort of thing comes down to money and term. Then there are things like location and the quality of the team and on and on before you would get to considerations like that.  Especially with an elite FA who, if they had any concerns about being traded, could just ask for a NTC.

In the end, I think it's good ethics and it is more than likely that it won't change.

That strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. There's nothing unethical about trading players in December. It also strikes me as a little arbitrary.

But I agree to some extent. I think it's further evidence of something I feel pretty strongly about. Regardless of what I think of the job Burke is doing in Toronto, everything I've seen of him has convinced me that he's a really good guy and, as a fan of the team, that's not meaningless to me. I would rather root for good guys than jerks.

That said, we all know what Leo Durocher said about nice guys and where they finish.

I'd agree, it's not an ethical question.  There's not an inherent question of 'right' vs. 'wrong' in the trading of players in December.  It's Burke's preference and it's consistent with his overall 'player first' approach. 

Burke can be called a lot of things, most of which I'm sure he openly aknowledges (and is unapologetic for).  But like Nik said, you can't say he's not a good guy who genuinely cares about the players and staff.  Whether his self-imposed Christmas trade freeze actually matters, in this regard, is irrelevant.  What matters, I think, is the symbolism of the act and that the senytiment is carried out across his relationship with team personnel.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

It's Burke's preference and it's consistent with his overall 'player first' approach. 

This is all I really meant to convey, not that you're not a good GM if you don't practice this. I like that he does it, or at least thinks to do these types of things. I was having a problem with somebody else thinking that it was something bad.

 

[Corn Flake]

It's Burke's preference and it's consistent with his overall 'player first' approach. 

This is all I really meant to convey, not that you're not a good GM if you don't practice this. I like that he does it, or at least thinks to do these types of things. I was having a problem with somebody else thinking that it was something bad.

Can't really imagine many players learn of his trade freeze policy and think "meh who cares. What's the big deal about that anyway?."   

Will it result in players flocking here to play, giving up on millions to play elsewhere? No, probably not. Is it just a good thing to do for the players they have to give them a bit of peace of mind around the holidays?  Yup.