Phileas Fogg
New member
If you shoehorn Pieterangelo in without moving the big 4 aren't you essentially forced to let Reilly and Hyman walk at the end of their deals?
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Frank E said:One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:
Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4
Then they're both UFA. Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.
If AP gets hurt we go back to last year's D core. We did run for a period last year with Rielly, Muzz and CC out. Injuries happen. We also don't know how good Lehtonen is He could surprise. As for the forwards. I think the weak spot is 3rd line centre but I think the wingers are fine.Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.Guilt Trip said:Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.CarltonTheBear said:Nik said:Guilt Trip said:Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...
Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033
Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167
Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k
plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
Hyman would have to accept a similar deal or he'd be gone unless the Leafs go with a cheaper goalie. Freddie and his 5 mill are off the books after next season. Maybe Scott or Woll will be ready? Who knows? You also gain 1.2 mill in cap space when Rielly is up as Kessel comes off the books.Frycer14 said:If you shoehorn Pieterangelo in without moving the big 4 aren't you essentially forced to let Reilly and Hyman walk at the end of their deals?
Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
Last years core? We did have Ceci and Barrie also. As much as I didn't like them they're still better depth than what we'd have with AP injured...Guilt Trip said:If AP gets hurt we go back to last year's D core. We did run for a period last year with Rielly, Muzz and CC out. Injuries happen. We also don't know how good Lehtonen is He could surprise. As for the forwards. I think the weak spot is 3rd line centre but I think the wingers are fine.Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.Guilt Trip said:Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.CarltonTheBear said:Nik said:Guilt Trip said:Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...
Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033
Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167
Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k
plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
Johnsson was bad last year. He was on a 40 point pace while getting the 7th most PP time. Kerfoot was worse. Mikheyev was way ahead of both in points per 60(without PP time) and Even points per 60.
Anyway, I was just goofing around to see if AP could fit in. I'm sure they might be able to find a 3rd line centre, possibly a vet that would sign for a low hit. Could Thornton be that guy? Koivu? I don't know, I haven't really thought much about who could play there.
I'm totally on the Gudas & Brodie/De Melo train and seeing if you can manoever after that. Also what people forget is you can still make a decent deal at the deadline if we've accrued enough space.bustaheims said:Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
bustaheims said:Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Our core as it stands now is Muzzin, Rielly, Holl and Sandin, Lehtonen, Liljegren, Rosen, Marincin. Lehtonen is the wild card here even if they sign Dermott to a reasonable hit.Bender said:Last years core? We did have Ceci and Barrie also. As much as I didn't like them they're still better depth than what we'd have with AP injured...
I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.RedLeaf said:bustaheims said:Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
RedLeaf said:Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence?
RedLeaf said:Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
Guilt Trip said:I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.RedLeaf said:bustaheims said:Bender said:Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.
Nik said:Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.
Nik said:Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.
RedLeaf said:The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.
herman said:Frank E said:One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:
Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4
Then they're both UFA. Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.
Low total dollars relative to the whole on Marner's deal, but which owner is going to sign off on dropping ~10M and then 7Mx4 in signing bonuses with COVID finances that are so cash strapped they're cutting ops and running an internal cap ON TOP of the trade capital that the Leafs would capitulate on (cost-controlled young defenseman like Heiskanen or top 5OA picks + additional cost-controlled youth?)?
They're both staying.
Nik said:RedLeaf said:The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.
The Leafs don't have 2 first round picks, unless you're assuming one would be returning in the supposed Nylander trade, but even then I still wouldn't be looking to draft defensemen. Being realistic about time frames means that any defenseman drafted is still likely 3-4 years away from being a solid contributor or, effectively, not until the next iteration of the team.
Because of where the team is looking for solid forward prospects with a realistic chance to contribute in the next couple of years is probably their best chance to improve the current team in a meaningful way.
Also, with the cap situation the way it is, I'd probably hold off on assuming that teams will just be lining up to throw awesome trade packages at the Leafs for Nylander