Pietrangelo Watch

[Guilt Trip]

Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.

Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.

I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.

The return is just not going to be as pronounced unless you offer up a real offensive talent like Nylander. Sure you could get lucky with some decent picks for those two, but your chances of drafting a really good defenseman diminish by leaps and bounds.

But we can't afford to lose Nylander's offence because we have no one to replace it. We can potentially get away with losing Kerfoot's and Johnsson's though. The key is to create space and not destroy your forward group and get some futures back via picks/prospect. Heck maybe a cheap 3rd line plugger. Nylander is too good to give up on right now.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I kind of feel like the people advocating for trading Marner and Nylander need to be slightly more specific with their thoughts on what the returns would actually be(and from who) because it seems like a lot of the value being espoused there is pretty hard to pin down.

Like, I like Nylander a lot but I don't think he's a good enough player that teams in need of a franchise type player would eagerly give away their shots at one.

I think some see Kappy getting a first should mean Nylander would bring more.

 

[Kin]

Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.

I don't see any reason why the team would implode but even then I don't think this is about a "now vs. later" schism. I think it's about being somewhat patient with the prospects we do have and looking to bolster other areas of the prospect base. The Leafs prospect base right now is sort of unquestionably strongest on defense with Liljegren and Sandin clearly outshining any of the guys the Leafs have in the forward ranks.

So when I look a couple years down the line the improvement on defense I see is from those guys(and, hopefully, Dermott/Rielly as they continue to grow). I look at the Leafs' system right now, however, and I don't see a ton of good candidates for filling out the bottom six.

And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.

I don't necessarily disagree(although I guess it depends on what you mean by "high end") but I don't think that would be a good value return.

 

[Redleaf]

I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMO

 

[Kin]

I think some see Kappy getting a first should mean Nylander would bring more.

I think that's a safe assumption but that's what I'm talking about when I say specificity would help. Because a lot of teams with internal caps and their own big RFA's to sign in a year or two are going to be wary about bringing in big contracts no matter how good the player is. Expecting to get full and fair value on top of that might be a big ask.

I think there's a reason reaction around the league to the Kapanen trade was as loud as it was. I don't think you'll see a lot of similar moves made in the coming years.

 

[Redleaf]

Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.

I don't see any reason why the team would implode but even then I don't think this is about a "now vs. later" schism. I think it's about being somewhat patient with the prospects we do have and looking to bolster other areas of the prospect base. The Leafs prospect base right now is sort of unquestionably strongest on defense with Liljegren and Sandin clearly outshining any of the guys the Leafs have in the forward ranks.

So when I look a couple years down the line the improvement on defense I see is from those guys(and, hopefully, Dermott/Rielly as they continue to grow). I look at the Leafs' system right now, however, and I don't see a ton of good candidates for filling out the bottom six.

And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.

I don't necessarily disagree(although I guess it depends on what you mean by "high end") but I don't think that would be a good value return.

I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.

 

[Kin]

I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.

Ok but I'm not sure that fundamentally changes the dynamic. If that happens, the Leafs will still have Liljegren and Sandin and not much prospect depth anywhere else.

 

[Redleaf]

I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.

Ok but I'm not sure that fundamentally changes the dynamic. If that happens, the Leafs will still have Liljegren and Sandin and not much prospect depth anywhere else.

Thats what I'm saying. 'If' they can secure some picks from a Nylander trade it can fill that cupboard a little more.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMO

Yes but that doesn't mean you need to weaken your forward core. You're trading away a 24 year old 30 goal scorer that's locked up for 4 more years at a great rate. You don't trade a player like that for picks unless he isn't signed, or under performs. You can strengthen your D by other less destructive ways. You may not get the same return, but you do less damage to the current group.

 

[Redleaf]

I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMO

Yes but that doesn't mean you need to weaken your forward core. You're trading away a 24 year old 30 goal scorer that's locked up for 4 more years at a great rate. You don't trade a player like that for picks unless he isn't signed, or under performs. You can strengthen your D by other less destructive ways. You may not get the same return, but you do less damage to the current group.

I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

 

[herman]

I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

 

[Frank E]

I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

NJ at #7 could use Nylander.

Anaheim?

 

[herman]

I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

NJ at #7 could use Nylander.

Anaheim?

Sell me, a noted Nylander-homer*, on the idea. Make it worth my while to even consider this. Especially this super smart idea to dump Nylander for no salary coming back so we can afford a just past-prime UFA tier 2 RD.

* Willy is Shanahan's son's favourite, btw

 

[Frank E]

I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

NJ at #7 could use Nylander.

Anaheim?

Sell me, a noted Nylander-homer*, on the idea. Make it worth my while to even consider this. Especially this super smart idea to dump Nylander for no salary coming back so we can afford a just past-prime UFA tier 2 RD.

* Willy is Shanahan's son's favourite, btw

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

Agree. He's not going anywhere and now I kind of hope AP signs with St. Louis or somewhere else. Would still like a Kuemper for Freddie deal though.

 

[Redleaf]

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

I believe this too. GMs are looking to win now, unless they're in a rebuild mode. I didn't say this would happen. Only that it would be the best way to improve this clubs defense. Having said that, I think we can all conclude AP is not likely coming to Toronto no matter how much any of us want to see it happen.

 

[Frank E]

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

I believe this too. GMs are looking to win now, unless they're in a rebuild mode. I didn't say this would happen. Only that it would be the best way to improve this clubs defense. Having said that, I think we can all conclude AP is not likely coming to Toronto no matter how much any of us want to see it happen.

I'm not as sure as you are about AP.  I think Shanahan and Dubas are going to be under some pretty strong pressure to dramatically improve their weak spots, and they've already tried the band-aid approach with Barrie and Ceci to little success.

 

[herman]

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

Ding ding ding. Kerfoot/Johnsson (same total cap hit as Nylander) are also way easier to move individually in cap space opening trades without either side feeling like it's a loss.

The only way I'd trade Nylander is for an equivalent value player in a position of need, and use the cap differential to try to replace the goals. Say Nylander+ for Ekblad+, or maybe Parayko+, or Heiskanen/Q.Hughes/Makar. None of that weak Pesce/Manson/Montour garbage GMs were floating during the contract standoff.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

Ding ding ding. Kerfoot/Johnsson (same total cap hit as Nylander) are also way easier to move individually in cap space opening trades without either side feeling like it's a loss.

The only way I'd trade Nylander is for an equivalent value player in a position of need, and use the cap differential to try to replace the goals. Say Nylander+ for Ekblad+, or maybe Parayko+, or Heiskanen/Q.Hughes/Makar. None of that weak Pesce/Manson/Montour garbage GMs were floating during the contract standoff.

Agreed. If Nylander is going Dubas needs to bring back a high end D man like you said. Anything less is a serious loss.